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bobo
05-27-01, 07:08 AM 05-27-01
If this is possible, will you go for it?

Cloning could recreate family pets
Sharon Schmickle
Star Tribune
Published Saturday, May 26, 2001

First there was Missy, the mutt so loved by her owners that they gave Texas A&M University samples of her tissue and $2.3 million dollars in 1998 to try cloning the dog.

Now cell banks are collecting tissue from hundreds of pets in anticipation of a not-too-distant day when families can turn to cloning to replace deceased or lost dogs and cats.

A tissue deposit at one bank was plucked last year from Nikita, a cat in Milwaukee whose owner regrets having her spayed and hopes to make amends by cloning her.

Another batch of cells came from Annie, a German shepherd who died last November. Her grieving owner, Kay Graff of Orlando, Fla., sees cloning as a "second shot at living with your best friend."

The deposits -- coming from Minnesota to Texas, California to Massachusetts -- are investments in mere hope at this point. No one has reported cloning a cat or a dog.

But three research teams are racing to clone a cat as early as this year. And scientists at Texas A&M in College Station say they are making significant progress toward cloning dogs within the next few years.

Meanwhile, at least three companies are offering -- for initial fees of $600 to $900 -- to preserve cells from pets.

The notion of duplicating a beloved Fluffy or Fido is so controversial that Paul Rasky of Milwaukee said his veterinarian insisted on remaining anonymous as a condition for extracting Nikita's cells for eventual cloning.

Still, cloning is rapidly moving from the barnyard to the living room. Techniques for cloning sheep, cows and other farm animals have advanced to a point where there is little doubt that pets also will be cloned, said Prof. Alan Hunter, an expert in animal reproduction at the University of Minnesota.

Even though Hunter is not affiliated with the cloning ventures, grief-stricken Minnesotans have begged him for help in cloning pets who had come to be seen as real family members, he said.

The same Fido?

The first question families need to consider is whether a clone could truly replace the lost loved one, said Hunter, who is an associate dean at the University of Minnesota's College of Agriculture, Food and Environmental Sciences.

A pet, like a person, is much more than the sum of its DNA. Its personality reflects experiences that often cannot be replicated. For example, the time and energy that a family could devote to a puppy a decade ago might be dramatically different today, and those are important factors in a dog's character.

"I could see the heartbreak coming when the dog or the cat doesn't develop the personality that the original pet had," Hunter said. "Maybe it would look like that pet, but how it behaves could be very different."

Scientists who are leading the cloning projects express similar reservations.

"We cannot reproduce a family's animal, we can only give them a genetic copy of the animal," said Philip Damiani who leads a cat-cloning project at Advanced Cell Technology Inc. in Worcester, Mass. The company has been prominent in cloning livestock.

"It would be nice to grow old with the same animal over and over again," he said. "But would you truly get the same satisfaction as from that original animal? Whoever gets the first cloned cat really needs to consider these consequences."

Waiting for Annie

Such warnings haven't dampened Kay Graff's enthusiasm for cloning Annie, a dog given to her by her father six months before he died. Annie and Graff were constant companions through the years when she left home, went through college and settled in Orlando, where she works as an embryologist.

"I know that a clone would not be her, but things like personality are very heritable," she said. "This would be the closest I could come to having the very same dog."

Two years ago, when Annie was 12, Graff had some of the dog's cells processed and frozen in liquid nitrogen at Lazaron BioTechnologies LLC in Baton Rouge, La., which is affiliated with cat-cloning research at Louisiana State University.

Other cell banks include PerPETuate, which is affiliated with Advanced Cell, and Genetic Savings and Clone, which is linked to cat and dog cloning research at Texas A&M and also has a California office.

Now, Graff and others who have banked their pets' cells are waiting for the science to catch up with the hope.

Missy's owners launched the dog cloning research the year after scientists in Scotland announced that they had created a lamb named Dolly from an adult sheep. The cost of the dog-cloning venture, dubbed the Missyplicity Project, has grown from the original $2.3 million donation to $3.7 million, said Lou Hawthorne, the official liaison between Texas A&M and the donors who have remained anonymous.

The goal has proven more elusive than expected. One reason dogs are particularly difficult to clone is because relatively little was known about their reproductive systems.

Huge sums had been invested in the reproduction of farm animals because the payback could be billions of dollars worth of milk, meat and breeding stock. And the debut of test-tube babies in 1978 had given rise to a lucrative industry in creating, storing and implanting human embryos.

But there had been relatively little financial incentive to tinker with the reproductive systems of pets. The cloning process involves obtaining mature eggs from females, replacing the genetic material in the eggs with DNA taken from the animal to be cloned, and implanting the resulting embryos in surrogate mothers during the right time in their fertility cycles.

Among other obstacles, female dogs go through fewer fertility cycles per year than most other mammals, which means there are fewer opportunities to obtain eggs and also to implant them.

Cats, it turns out, are easier to clone. Scientists at Advanced Cell have fine-tuned the process of creating cloned cat embryos and implanting them in surrogate mothers, Damiani said. So far the pregnancies have failed to hold for the 60 days it normally takes to produce kittens. Research teams who reached that point in cloning other animals overcame the final problems by repeated trial and error.

Endangered species

The cat research projects at Advanced Cell and Louisiana State are funded, in part, by groups seeking to preserve endangered species of wild cats. A team of researchers led by Damiani announced in January that it had cloned the first endangered animal, a baby bull gaur, a wild ox. The overall goal is to preserve genetic diversity in a species by making copies of animals who for one reason or another don't reproduce naturally, he said.

Even after the first cloned kittens are born, however, studies will be needed to make sure they develop normally. Although some cloned animals appear to be thriving, others have immune system deficiencies and other problems.

Costs also could stop many families from cloning pets. Estimates range up to $20,000 for the first few cloned dogs and $3,000 to $5,000 for cats. But scientists say the prices would drop substantially as the process is streamlined. In order to be commercially realistic, prices would need to settle at the levels buyers expect to pay for top pedigreed animals, Damiani said.

Rasky in Milwaukee has staked $5,000 on cloning Nikita within the next year, said Ron Gillespie, president of PerPETuate. Rasky said that he might spend such a sum on a special vacation, and a clone of Nikita could provide far more pleasure.

"I look into her eyes, and I'm just amazed how loving they are," he said.

crystalcavies
05-27-01, 02:48 PM 05-27-01
No I wouldn't, thing is that personallities are made up not only be genes but what happens to you, if you grew up in a different type of family, either richer or poorer, you would be different, also the things that happened to you as a baby, are very unlikely to happen to you again the same way, the sam ewith animals, the reason a pet is like it is is partly enviroment, things it had happen as a baby, its mother, which it would not have the same, it would pick up things form its mother, of course if you didn't have it first, the enviroment of the home it first had, would cause it to be who it is. you can't replicate everything that happened to it, so you could end up so dissapointed, that a pet is not quite the pet to had, even though it looks like it. I would prefer to let my pet die when its time was up and have a new one, that would not take the place of the old one, but make a new relationship with it, as a different pet and of course never forget the one i had lost, my cat Willow would never be the same cat, if I had her cloned, because she would not have the same enviroment to grow up in, she was a rescued cat, living rough for 5 months beofre I had her, then I went to work during hte day and she was left with toys and stuf to do, aldso I had birds then, which she grow up withm I have guinea pigs and rabbits, gerbils and degus now, so the reaction of her running fromt he birds etc, would not happen, the hamster that bi her toe which made her warry of small animals after she went to sleep on top of its cage, all these things and more would not be the same, and would not make cloned Willow the Willow she is now.
Crystal cavies

Nightmare
05-27-01, 04:56 PM 05-27-01
I agree with Crystal about the personalities not being the same. I can't say for sure that I would not do it, I don't think I have ever had a Pet that I would want over and over again.

I will say this. When I was younger, my mother decided to get rid of all the Cats. She went about six months without one and was miserable. I found a friend who had a litter of kittens whose father just happened to come from a cat that we had owned and had passed away. She was part of a long line coming from a stray that had showed up in our yard years before.

While she didn't look just like her grandmother, or great grandmother, she definately had some of their traits. To say I would clone one would take a great deal of consideration. There are too many unknown factors, like the health issue and the personality.

I would not, however, totally discount the possibility. Those people who are paying thousands and millions of dollars to have this done, must have loved their animals a great deal to want to duplicate it. I am sure it was not a decision the came upon lightly.

Nightmare

Porky
07-24-01, 03:28 AM 07-24-01
I don't think i will clone my pet. Quite a scary thought. He may genetically be the same but wat about his character? Why play god?

tappajabba
07-24-01, 06:00 PM 07-24-01
hi to you all,
lost interest reading all the posts on this subject and apologise for that first...

second to get back to the question on cloning...No I wouldnt.

DEATH is as much a part of LIFE, and we are supposed to live and learn through life to prepare for death in order to live a better life !!!!!
v
v
v
v
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Confused...so am I ;p

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Tappajabba....
helping to promote healthy pet keeping worldwide...

Kerry
07-24-01, 07:55 PM 07-24-01
Cloning in cases such as this is very wrong.

Things die for a reason and we should not meddle with nature. If your pet died of a genetic disorder or something inherited from a parent, why would you want to re-create that so the next animal can suffer the same.

There is an old equation relating to simple biology:
Genotype + Environment = Phenotype.

Genotype being your genetic make up, Phenotype being your physical appearence and your character.

An animals personality and character is largly built upon experiences from the day it's born and learned responses. There are a few innate characteristics from animal to animal but the main personality of an animal comes from what's it's learned and taken in. This is unique to each individual and cannot be selected out by cloning.

I myself have experience in cloning in the lab, but that is for the gentical modification of food crops etc.

Cloning is not the problem here when it comes to live animals and humans, it's the people who cannot accept death and the reasons for death that are the problem.

Billie Bird
07-25-01, 07:17 AM 07-25-01
No I wouldnt, it's not natural and the movie Pet Cemetary comes to mine....

Deca
07-26-01, 01:43 AM 07-26-01
THERE ARE TOO MANY HOMELESS ANIMALS for people to be so selfish as to create a "copy" of their first pet. Save the LIFE of an already living and breathing original animal by adopting!! Also, don't insult your pet! They cannot be replaced so don't even try! :P

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http://members.aol.com/ilovedecadog/myhomepage/pitbull1.jpg?mtbrand=AOL_US

CeMe17
07-26-01, 05:27 AM 07-26-01
No Way!! Never, Ever would I clone my pets. Don't get me wrong, I love them very, very much but I wouldn't. It's like trying to find someone or something to replace something you've already lost. Even if it is just like the same, it won't feel the same. What about saving the pets that NEED it?

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*ErIn*
Piggy - Oreo
Hammy - Hammy
Puppy - Lucky

Chillie
07-26-01, 10:11 AM 07-26-01
I agree with all of you pets are unique and there are many pets to be taken care of and we should take those.

sushichou
07-26-01, 04:30 PM 07-26-01
No. It's kinda sick to do that.. it wouldn't be the same animal! And it seems immoral to create another individual and try to make it into one that came before. Also, it appears that Dolly [the cloned sheep for those whose memory is as bad as mine http://petshub.com/ubb/wink.gif] is rather.. well.. mentally deficient? Even for a sheep, yes. Again, probably immoral to make an animal which will probably not be all there.

And.. does the animal really belong to you to recreate? Some might say we're the animals' people, not the other way around http://petshub.com/ubb/wink.gif

animal_gurl
08-16-01, 03:45 PM 08-16-01
No, I wouldn't do it. God says not to and there ARE too many homeless dogs and other pets out there to be selfish.

Houdi
03-24-02, 01:46 AM 03-24-02
I don't recall ever having a "bad" pet, all of my pets have been very special to me, in their own special way. dogs specially give a lot of themselves. Dying is a part of life, and I would not want to "see" an image of a special friend after their death. Any dog, cat, fish or ferret can become a special friend to you, is the quality of living you provide for them how they respond to you.
In loving memory of : MAX, EBONY, LUCKY, XENA, SUNNY, STONEcOLD AND MY COCKATAILS SALT & PEPPER.
Icee, Xica and Roxy, I love you now and forever. And there will be no other like you.

judybug
03-24-02, 06:30 AM 03-24-02
:bawling:
As much as I loved my dog I wouldn't want to
bring him back as I am sorry God intended for
things to be as normal as possible.
Just my thoughts.
Judy

Pet Flare
12-28-04, 12:36 AM 12-28-04
Cloning. Never. The thing is you wouldn't get the same pet. Only 50% of your personality is genetic and the other one is based on the environment the subject was raised in. And experiences they might have had in that time which you can't really replace. Cloning I feel is wrong PERIOD.

If a pet owner loves their pet that much why wouldn't they want their pets to rest in peace. I don't feel we should screw with LIFE. I don't feel it is right to play God, especially when it comes to cloning.

I don't think cloning pets is going to worth while business to get into anytime soon. Look at how everyone feels about this topic on this thred alone.

No I would never clone a pet or even a loved family member if given the chance. Thats my opinion on Cloning.

JenHan disease
12-28-04, 02:05 AM 12-28-04
Cloning...
how could anyone ever clone a pet? i mean its just terrible even thinking about it.
spending huge amounts of money to recreate a pet is just so incredibly WRONG!!!
no matter how much u adore your pet there is no point on cloning it. Sure it will look identical but the personality wont be the same.
it doesnt matter what the animal looks like on the outside, the way the animal is is the reason we love them. im sure we dont love our pets because they are beautiful on the outside, but that may be one of the reasons.
no1 will ever be able to clone a personality, sure they may try but it wont work.
We dont love our family and pets because of the way they look, so what is the point of cloning?
too much money for a pet that might not be nice! anyone who wants to clone is better off going to a shelter and saving an animal that needs to be saved.

Pickles2
12-28-04, 02:10 AM 12-28-04
Eww gross me out! That is just sick! WHY oh why! You people make me sick!

KayDawg
12-28-04, 08:53 AM 12-28-04
I wouldn't clone but I'd like to propose a hypothetical.
IF you could clone and they were EXACTLY the same, like you couldn't even tell the difference..then woudl you do it?

Most people say they wont' clone simply because of the personality. I figured there'd be more responses regarding the ethical concerns.

LilSnooPydOG
12-28-04, 11:21 AM 12-28-04
No way would I clone a pet, even if they would be EXACTLY the same in every way. I find it just wrong, dying is a part of life and instead of cloning to create another animal, I would go save one.

FerretBoys
12-28-04, 09:17 PM 12-28-04
They just did clone a cat. A maine coon named Nicky I believe, he died at 17. His owner paid like $50,000 for it and has named him little Nicky.

tara55355
12-28-04, 09:29 PM 12-28-04
why do we all refer to cloning as being the job of "god"? is there even really a "god" out there? i am not religious and i am neutral on the subject but how did they think of this "god" was it in a dream because i really don't think it would really be playing a part as god. my thought's would be playing part as earth. as for cloning its up to the person. what if your beloved pet died from a murder?

LilSnooPydOG
12-28-04, 11:00 PM 12-28-04
Nobody just thought up God, it's all in the Bible. But, I'm not going to get into that as I am a religious person (even more now as I do believe I have experienced a miracle), and it is a different topic. ;)

Maybe, yes, it should be up to the person...but I still feel it is wrong. Even if somebody killed my pet...I would feel very wrong by having it cloned. I would be much happier by adopting an animal that needed another chance at life, versus just creating another animal. $50,000 just to have your pet "back"...do you know how many cats she could have saved, or what she could have donated to shelters? Just not worth it, IMO.

Cat Cavy
12-29-04, 03:18 AM 12-29-04
I wouldn't clone but I'd like to propose a hypothetical.
IF you could clone and they were EXACTLY the same, like you couldn't even tell the difference..then woudl you do it?

Most people say they wont' clone simply because of the personality. I figured there'd be more responses regarding the ethical concerns.

Interesting, and let's keep it hypothetical :D I would be very sceptical to cloning my pets. Firstly: Cloning of mammals is still very experimental, so I wouldn't do it, for fear of something going very wrong. But then I'm contradicting myself, because we are assuming the animal was the same. I still wouldn't do it. Grief after loss is a part of keeping pets, and when you get a new animal, getting to know their personalities is part of the fun! I would want my new pet to be different! Besides: The poor clone would have to live up to the high expectations :) !

No, the money is better spent on adoptions of animals that need a new home. I do sooooo agree!

Cat

jeffgordon14
12-29-04, 10:49 AM 12-29-04
yah right! i could never do that! it totaly goes against Gods word!

tara55355
12-29-04, 11:24 AM 12-29-04
okay so WHERE did the bible come from???Somebody thought it up. Nobody really knows what is out there and if there is really anything. Maybe rencarnation?

liv4pete
12-29-04, 03:22 PM 12-29-04
[QUOTE=Deca]THERE ARE TOO MANY HOMELESS ANIMALS for people to be so selfish as to create a "copy" of their first pet. Save the LIFE of an already living and breathing original animal by adopting!! Also, don't insult your pet! They cannot be replaced so don't even try! :P

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my thoughts exactly!! very well said.

KayDawg
12-29-04, 04:16 PM 12-29-04
okay so WHERE did the bible come from???Somebody thought it up. Nobody really knows what is out there and if there is really anything. Maybe rencarnation?
Someone didn't "think it up." If a Christian is gonna believe the Bible came from God, who are you to say otherwise?

Maybe it didn't, but you can disprove it only as much as you can prove it.

Something in general when it comes to arguments about God/religion that people don't consider: And I address this more to people that say God doesn't exist and it's silly to believe in God. You can't even prove in the slightest bit that God doesn't exist, yet you make such a bold claim.

I am Muslim, and I have a very strong belief in God. I believe the Q'uran was revealed to Prophet Muhommad though the angel Gabriel (who was God's messenger). I can't go back in time and try to prove it, but I have every right to believe it, and anyone who says it didn't happen holds the same exact burden I do when it comes to trying to PROVE it.

JenHan disease
12-30-04, 12:06 AM 12-30-04
KayDawg u have made some very good points!
Tara55355 no one here should have any right to say that, a lot of people could get offended and it is your opinion so maybe you should keep it to yourself next time. :)

Cat Cavy
12-30-04, 02:08 AM 12-30-04
Some very good points there. I've always been more of an agnostic, less believing in God when I was in my teens (angry, etc. ;-)), but taking courses in molecular biology at the university, and doing some primitive cloning on plants in the lab, made me more sceptical to meddling too much with nature, and less sure that God could be disproven. Looking into the chemistry of genes revealed a kind of beauty that I wasn't so sure anymore didn't come from a higher power. Confusing?

Besides: Faith is different from knowledge in that you don't need physical proof to have faith.

Cat

jeffgordon14
12-31-04, 08:02 AM 12-31-04
well I would never clone anywhay

KayDawg
12-31-04, 09:24 AM 12-31-04
what if you were dying and needed a liver transplant, couldn't find a donor, and the doctors told you they could clone a liver for you?

jeffgordon14
12-31-04, 02:32 PM 12-31-04
naaaaaaaaaaaaah

Pet Flare
01-02-05, 08:44 PM 01-02-05
I truly feel cloning is wrong as well. I don't think it will fly on the market any time some from the sounds of it.

Kayley
01-02-05, 10:04 PM 01-02-05
hmmmmmmm, probably not

Ann Vole
01-02-05, 11:39 PM 01-02-05
I never read all the posts but here is my two cents worth...Most pets have very little genetic variation to start with so that extra part of a percent of "sameness" in a cloned one verses getting one of it's relatives instead is not worth the effort, money, and possible shortening of life span of cloning. Anecdotal evidence: my uncle has had the same dog for over 50 years and he always acts the same but every decade or so, one particular breeder sells him a new one (meet Tokey #7)

Ann Vole
01-03-05, 12:10 AM 01-03-05
I don't think the bible says much on cloning. The best I could find is Lev 19:19 "do not mate different kinds of animals" but in context I think that passage was refering to being "pure" and would only apply to genetic engineering and not to cloning (the first step to genetic engineering). I am very curious in any other passages in any religious texts that may be applicable to cloning or genetic engineering!

GALSMad
01-03-05, 02:05 AM 01-03-05
Cloning is basically replacing the original pet. Just because the pet was sorely loved does not make it right to make another exact copy. You're offending their individuality. As tappajabba said, it's life and we should live with the sad events it brings with it.

jeffgordon14
01-04-05, 12:18 PM 01-04-05
Only God is the creator. We where not meant to create others.

traici
01-04-05, 05:11 PM 01-04-05
i feel i had to stand up for tara. she stated her opinion that god does not exist (i know, a little off topic, but other people did bring it up). some replies said that it was her opinion and she should keep it to herself. what a boring place this forum would be if we all kept our opinions to ourselves!! there is a huge difference in stating your opinion, and trying to force your opinion on other people, and i don't think that she was trying to convince us all that her way is right.
on the cloning subject, i just don't think it's right to clone pets. but then kay dawg brings up a good point - if something (like a liver) could be cloned to make us live longer, would we do it? i don't know about myself, but yes, i would in order to save my children. i think the difference here is that they would still be my kids, exactly the same as they were before. they would not be replacements of my children. i would not clone my kids in case something happened to them, so i could have little replicas of them, and i sometimes treat my pets as if they were my children.

GALSMad
01-05-05, 08:52 AM 01-05-05
Personally, I wouldn't accept a cloned liver, even if it could make me live longer. I believe any type of cloning is wrong but then that's just my opinion...

KtfccHosting
05-23-05, 12:52 AM 05-23-05
Well since most of us love our pets that passed away i think it would be good but not as good as having the full gen or dna but i know we all love our pets even i did love my pet BJ whom past away several years ago i loved her very much and how it would be if you want to see her again but if u got a new pet i dont think so

Spudnik
05-23-05, 12:32 PM 05-23-05
Ugh, old topic.

And about saying 'Keep it to yourself'... maybe people could say the same about keeping your views of god existing to yourself. It might hurt people's feelings if it opposes their beliefs... of course, this is not the thing to do. This is a discussion forum and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So 'It's sick' isn't too tactful, either.

Songbird
05-23-05, 03:08 PM 05-23-05
Very true Spud, i'd agree with that. Everyone is entitled to their own personal opinion and it's not right to say someone is wrong in their beliefs just because they are different.
As far as cloning is concerned; i'm a bit undecided on this one! I would probably say no I wouldn't get it done - mainly because I feel we are taking way too many liberties playing with nature and it's not a natural thing to do (if that makes sense!)

S t e p h
05-24-05, 05:03 AM 05-24-05
I would neva eva clone my pet!!

bubbles11
05-27-05, 08:01 AM 05-27-05
As much as I love my deceased pets, I wouldn't bring my babies back. They would have no idea what was going on, because so much happens in life these days. They wouldn't know anything about anything, because it's like they were just born. We were only meant to reproduce our own kind. Cloning is WRONG.

Spudnik
05-27-05, 08:17 AM 05-27-05
Cloning is WRONG in your opinion...

overtgabby
05-31-05, 06:39 PM 05-31-05
Cloning pets: bad idea. Cloning people: bad idea. Using DNA to save lives, good Idea. I beleive in God, but not in Church.

RavenRose
06-03-05, 01:37 AM 06-03-05
Ok, it's 3:30am and I'm a little tired, so I didn't read EVERY post, so sorry if I repeat anything that someone else has said already.
If I were to clone my husky/lab mix and expect her to be exactly the same as she is, I wouldn't really be thinking very well. She's not purebred for one thing (although these points work pretty well for purebreds also)... she currently has more of the lab personality and looks just like a husky... to the point of no one believing me that she's not purebred. Who's to say the cloned version wouldn't look like a lab and act like a husky? Which, to me at least, isn't as good as she currently is. Even if she was a purebred husky, how many different colors do they come in? There would be no guarantee the clone would look anything like she does now. Or even worse, what if she looked exactly the same but something wasn't quite right and she visciously attacked everyone she saw? Is that really how I'd want to honor her memory, to turn her into a monster? And a lot of their personality isn't based just on genetics, if the clone wasn't raised in the exact same settings, there would be differences. Basically, no matter how much you wanted to have your dog back, it would NOT be the same dog.
As far as the whole, cloning the liver thing... if they could find a way to clone just the liver, it may not be that bad, but my thoughts would be that they'd have to clone a person to have the liver right... can't go killing people just to have a liver. Well...you could... but then you'd be a murderer. ;)

lilstrawberry
12-04-05, 08:37 AM 12-04-05
i would not spend millions to clone my pet because the pet would not have the same personality as the original. it could never be the same, it would just have the same appearance as the original pet. if you are going to clone (and not many people do in Britain) then i say, better just to buy a new pet with similar appearance to your old pet, than to spend millions getting the same thing. i also believe that someone who cloned pets or paid someone to clone a pet would be playing God which, in my eyes, is wrong.

rabbitdogcatluv
12-04-05, 11:57 AM 12-04-05
woa...big writing!!!


Can people even clone things?(I didn't read hardly any of the posts...too many!)