3 Reasons not to sell [any] animals at your petstore...

[lockshockbarrel]

1. Anyone can buy them, including snake owners who just don't mention they're going to be food, or complete idiots who buy an animal to torture it or something.

2. It's expensive, without neglecting the animals, it can cost thousands of dollars a year (see "costs")

3. If you breed them, you're contributing to the millions of animals killed a year in shelters.

Costs-
2 rats eat 105g of food daily $.20
Need 1 hour of socialization daily $7
Need 450 sq in of bedding weekly. $.09 (daily)

$7.29 x 365 = $2660.85 + $100 for vet visits= $2760.85. You would need to sell 277 rats to make a profit, approximately 3 rats every 4 days. Can you find 3 people in your general area who want a rat or two every 4 days for a year?


If you were breeding them, you would need 4 rats-
4 rats eat 225g of food daily $.42 (pregnant rats eat more)
Need 2 hours of socialization a day $14
Need 900 sq in of bedding weekly $.18

Now, you could breed 8 litters a year with 2 dams, so that means you would always have a litter. Rats have 12 babies on average, and a socializer probably couldn't handle more than 3-4 babies at once, so that would be another 3-4 hours of socialization ($21).

If you sold them right after they were weaned (6 weeks old), that would add up to $35.63 per day ($21 +.42 + 14 + .21 = $35.63) which is $13004.95 per year.
Plus vet bills, which could very well be up to hundreds of dollars per year ($50 for each rat, C-section for a rat is $200, emergency spay $200, Plus rats who have babies are more likely to get sick)

In the very best of humane circumstances, you could make a profit if you managed to sell each rat for $135.47. ($13004.95 / 96 babies = $135.47)

[SnowPrincess]

Omg wow, i've never thought of breeding costs that way! :shocked:

how'd you think of all that? it must have taken some time.

[Songbird]

As far as breeders are concerned (non-commercial):
If a breeder is truely passionate about their animals the costs of breeding wont be in the equation, they breed for the breed so to speak and money plays no part in it - they just ask a small fee to cover some of the feeding costs usually. Also you will find any breeder worth their salt will try and research the homes their animals go to as much as possible and not just sell them to 'any idiot on the street' - Just to see it from a breeders point of view.
As far as pet shops are concerned, if we wanted more control over pet shops we need look no further than the environmental departments which license the pet shops (ie when looking at the conditions in bad shops) and by monitoring these I feel all bad pet shops which refuse to comply with the rules should be closed down (although unfortunately this doesn't seem to happen). BUT not ALL shops are bad, I know a few which keep records (addresses etc) of people who buy ANY animal from them and also ones which WILL refuse selling animals if they feel the person doesn't "fit the bill". I've even known of rescue animals from rescue centres ending up in the wrong hands and being kept in awful conditions.

Just an opinion.

[brandy pup]

I worked in a store that kept information of people who biought the animals - it was required by law they keep these records not becuase they cared.

[Songbird]

I work on the management side of pet centre and all of the people there care for the animals and ensure that animals only go to homes which they think are suitable.

[lockshockbarrel]

Yes, however not all people selling animals would keep such careful records, and, what about the cost?

[Emylee]

I didn't look at your calculations closely but I think something is wrong. What if they get the animals in and sell them after one day (which is often the case with the pet shops in my area.)
if...

2 rats eat 105g of food daily $.20
Need 1 hour of socialization daily $7
Need 450 sq in of bedding weekly. $.09 (daily)

That would be about 4 dollars a rat a day. Say you sell them for 20 dollars each. That means that you will be making a profit of (if you sell both rats) $32 per day if you only sell 2 rats. Not a bad living if you ask me. I don't buy from pet shops but not all of them are as evil as people LIKE to make them out to be. I buy from good breeders.

[critterfan]

I know the mice get bought from a pet shop to feed my sience teachers snake! It's really mean!

[lockshockbarrel]

2 rats eat 105g of food daily $.20
Need 1 hour of socialization daily $7
Need 450 sq in of bedding weekly. $.09 (daily)

That would be about 4 dollars a rat a day. Say you sell them for 20 dollars each. That means that you will be making a profit of (if you sell both rats) $32 per day if you only sell 2 rats. Not a bad living if you ask me.

If you price them at $20 each, noone would buy them, most quality breeders only charge $30 a pair at the most.
The standard pet store rate is $10, $10/$3.645 per day= 2.74 days.

[Emylee]

All the ratties near my house are 20 -30 dollars a piece. The "pet" ones at least. The feeder rats are like 10 dollars each but they are smaller.

[lockshockbarrel]

$20/3.645 = 5.49 days, still a very short time to find rats homes.

[9catsz]

Rats for $30, $10??? Here they are $3.
Exactly what are snakes supposed to eat if they don't eat rodents?

[JordanK]

I'm boggled by the snake comments... What exactly are they going to eat? They need small/large rodents to live. They can't be a vegetarian.

[IwuvBunBuns72]

yeah im not big with snakes eating rodents but snakes need food too like any other animal. Most pet stores have their own feeder section with mice and rats they have bred to be snake food.

[lockshockbarrel]

I agree that snake owners are entitled to feed their snakes, but not live food. Feeding live food is just about the most inhumane thing you can do to a snake, or a rat. There is a very high risk of accidents.

[riegfinnid]

I agree that snake owners are entitled to feed their snakes, but not live food. Feeding live food is just about the most inhumane thing you can do to a snake, or a rat. There is a very high risk of accidents.


as a snake and rodent owner, let me just say that i dont think its inhumane to feed live food...i mean, thats what they do in nature...but i DO thinks its irresponsible...as pet owners it should be in your interest to avoid anything that may cause harm to your animal and feeding live food has its risks (mites/biting and so on)

[JaMaHmt]

so who kills these rats & mice for them in the wild. there is a differance in snake owners about pre-kill or live. wich every you prefer a snake still has to eat. though i feel that snakes who need to eat larger rats should have pre-killed because of serious bite injuries caused by rats.

[riegfinnid]

[QUOTE=JaMaHmt]so who kills these rats & mice for them in the wild. QUOTE]


The snakes kill rats and mice themselves..

but i DO agree with you, snake owners should always feed prekilled. its much safer that way.
and if the snake is refusing to eat you dont end up with a live pinky/fuzzy or grown rat suffering.

[DazyDaizee]

Then again there are pet stores who prekill by sticking them in the freezer..so which is the more humane way? Reguardless...the snake does have to eat..which I think everyone agrees with...I just wouldn't own a snake for that reason...but that's me.
And around here fancy standard eared rats go for 8-10 dollars or so and dumbos go for 15-even 30, but typically in the 20 range. Feeders are about five, usually.
But if you wanted to sell pets in a pet store..maybe just do it every once in a while...don't keep a constant supply. That way you'd be more likely to find good homes (you could have potential buyers first fill out an adoption application ...and maybe only breed when you have enough people looking for rats who can provide good homes). You could have the potential buyers or some other volunteers come and socialize the rats daily..there are usually people willing to do that..so as long as you screen them, know who you're dealing with..that could work...but even without them, there is typically a time during the day at a pet store that is not especially busy. If you're paying workers to be there ANYWAY..have someone do that when there is nothing else to do..not a big deal.

I honestly can't say whether or not you could make money off of it..but I think it could be worked out.

[Courtinie]

You have to remember though that live animals are what draw some potential customers to your store. People come to look at the fish, the puppies, kitties, ferrets, chinchillas, bunnies and guineas. I'm not saying keep all at once. I wouldn't do dogs myself, cats are a maybe. But by getting people in the store you up business. I shop in petstores where I can see animals and never bother again with those that don't have anything.

[brandy pup]

Kittens are no better then the puppies. If they want to look they should give the attention to the shelter pets who really need a loving hand.

[RavenRose]

Kittens are no better then the puppies. If they want to look they should give the attention to the shelter pets who really need a loving hand.

That's why the company I work for doesn't sell puppies or kittens. We sell small animals, birds and fish, all very well taken care of. But we make no money on them, basically because of how well they're taken care of. We make our money off of the products to go along with the animals. The animals sold are given the regular feed for whatever they are plus fresh fruits and/or veggies, depending on the animal. They are taken to the vet for ANYTHING that we see wrong with them. We spend a fortune on vet bills, but any respectable business would. As far as the puppies and kittens, we do have them at the store, but only because we provide space for the local shelters to bring them up. If they bring dogs, they have to stay with them, but we'll keep cats there for 2 weeks before we switch to a new shelter. (we rotate between 5 shelters) We supply the food, water and litter and make no money on them either... the only money taken is the amount that the shelter requires and it goes straight to them. I absolutely love it. It's very rewarding to do the adoptions and see the cats go home with someone.

[lockshockbarrel]

Kittens are no better then the puppies.

Which are no better than any animal. There are rescues for every pet there is, none are more deserving then the other.

[LandonCowling]

Snakes need to eat to, we have to purchase our snakes food some where. Snakes cant survive with out food.

[LandonCowling]

Your right, it would be much better to freeze a warm blooded animal to deat, slam its head into the floor, or through it into a gas chamber, perhaps even boil it alive. Thats how prekilled rodents are made :)

[Emylee]

I feed my sweet little angel Shadow live pinkies. It's much more nutritious. When the pinkies are frozen they lose a lot of nutritional value. It's much better, and much healthier to feed them live.

Look at this cute little face.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v213/EmyleeShadow04/Pets%20n%20stuff/awwa001.jpg

How could I deny him what he needs simply because some people consider it to be inhumane? It's not a lot worse then the way they are killed if you buy them frozen.

[RangerRiff]

and i have heard that if you feed live food to ur animals they become for agressive

[Emylee]

and i have heard that if you feed live food to ur animals they become for agressive

That's false.

[DazyDaizee]

http://www.citterhut.com/sugargliderfaqs.htm says: Pinkies (although very nutritious, we choose not to feed pinkies because of a few items that suggest feeding pinkies may increase the possibility of mothers eating their joeys)

Just saying..it's not something sugar gliders actually need..it may be good for them, but not something needed. The site is published by a breeder who claims to have never had a nutrition related illness or death. He goes into great details about the diet he feeds his gliders on the site.

[DazyDaizee]

I don't know why that link isn't working. try http://www.critterhut.com

[Emylee]

Pinkies (http://www.sugarglider.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB3&Number=318915&Searchpage=1&Main=318589&Words=pinkies+Mikey_Bustos&topic=&Search=true#Post318915)

no one should be breeding their gliders anyway. :mad:

They do need the protein.

read that thread. ;)

[DazyDaizee]

I read most of it..seems like everyone has their own opinion on it..but frankly, I don't really want to be involved in the discussion..it makes me kind of sick..For me it bothers me that it's just a sugar glider eating it...a snake eats relatively fast, but I would imagine and by some of the comments I read, a sugar glider nibbles more...which is just such a drawn out painful thing...and to me, rats and mice are pets...so it bothers me..the same as if you were to think about a baby sugar glider being nibbled to death by a rat, I'm sure...

..I can't take those slow kinds of things..I have leopard geckos, and they eat crickets and mealworms. Once I fed them waxworms and some crickets.. one had taken a bite of a waxworm, but hadn't killed it. It was still squirming around ...a cricket came over and grabbed it and started chewing on it..the thing was going crazy, I would assume, in a lot of pain..I couldn't even watch that...I took the waxworm out and crushed it instead..I figured at least it was quick...

[DazyDaizee]

oh..by the way..why shouldn't they breed gliders?
And don't you think there are some alternatives to getting protein? (I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do anything, I'm just curious. I would assume there's an alternative to pinkies...)

[Emylee]

I think that glider breeders are okay, but like many I am against back yard breeding. I do not plan on breeding my glider. There are so many homeless gliders. :( So the eating their joey thing doesn't bother me, although I'm sure I could find proof to back up my belief that by feeding pinkies a glider will not be more likely to eat it's young. Usually the reason why they do eat their joeys is because they are not getting ENOUGH protein in their diet.

I know what you mean about the slow death thing, that bothered me at first too. I feed pinkies to my reptiles as well. BUT I have noticed that usually my glider bites the head first, killing it before he starts nibbling.

And yes, there are alternatives. Like I mentioned, I feed pinkies to my reptiles as well, so it's more of a convenience thing for me. BUT the nutritional value in pinkies is great. I would rather feed that then chicken.

I have my glider on Darcy's diet. That provides the vitamins, and the stable, but a glider also needs fruit, veggies, and a protein source. The pinkie provides the protein portion of the diet and is a LOT better then chicken. I also feed mealworms, crickets, chicken, turkey, and eggs.

It makes me sad too, seeing a mouse die, but I love my glider more then the mouse. And quite frankly, that chicken or turkey that I sometimes feed instead, died a MUCH more painful death then the pinkies that I feed. I don't know how much research you have done on the lives of livestock, but I encourage you to do a little more. They have awful lives prior to being slaughtered in horrible ways.

At least I can ensure that my pinkies have a good life, in the short time they are with me.

[DazyDaizee]

Trust me..I know..I'm a vegetarian..a good amount for that reason. And otherwise..I just don't think it's necessary for me to eat meat..I've done fine without it.
And I do understand where you're coming from on wanting what's best for your glider. It just bothers me, personally, and I wouldn't be able to do it..which is one of the reasons I never had a snake..
But like I said, I do understand it from your perspective, and its better to hear the pinky typically dies quickly.

[lockshockbarrel]

Note: I never said snake owners shouldn't have mice for their animals, but there are plenty of places to buy frozen food and lots of places you can buy live animals besides pet stores, like reptile shows. However, I'd like to say that I believe live feeding, bashing feeders against a wall, and freezing are all inhumane.
Lots of frozen food places like rodent-pro flash freeze their feeders, so they keep their nutrients.

[Emylee]

Lots of frozen food places like rodent-pro flash freeze their feeders, so they keep their nutrients.

That's the thing though, when they are frozen they loose a lot of those nutrients. ;)

[Deermouse]

as a snake and rodent owner, let me just say that i dont think its inhumane to feed live food...i mean, thats what they do in nature...Please don't equate feeding a pet snake pre-selected food (size and temperment) that can't run or hide, to being natural. In nature the hunter often becomes the hunted. If they don't find the proper food, they may have to try for something too big or starve. While they are busy doing this there is a hawk looking to eat them. "that's what they do in nature..."

If you want to feed live, that's up to you (unless you live in the UK), but don't delude yourself as to it's being natural.

paul

[Deermouse]

so who kills these rats & mice for them in the wild. The snakes kill rats and mice themselves..

but i DO agree with you, snake owners should always feed prekilled. its much safer that way.
and if the snake is refusing to eat you dont end up with a live pinky/fuzzy or grown rat suffering.Sometimes the rats kill the snake themselves. In Boston I once saw a rat as big as a large cat. It must have weighed 20 pounds. There were 4 of us who surrounded it to have a look. The rat looked up at us and you could almost hear him think: "if there were only 2...". After checking us out, he slowly walked off. He could have handled a good sized snake for breakfast.

paul

[Deermouse]

Your right, it would be much better to freeze a warm blooded animal to deat, slam its head into the floor, or through it into a gas chamber, perhaps even boil it alive. Thats how prekilled rodents are made :)The knowlegable snake people that I've spoken with recommend carbon dioxide as a humane way to put food animals to sleep before freezing. I know of at least one pet shop that stopped carring live feeders. They said the purchasers usually wanted them (the clerks) to "thump them" (slam it's head against the counter). They decided they didn't want to do that anymore.

[Rhondakbt]

http://www.borntodiepets.com/html/video.htm

If you have any further reasons why not to carry pets, simply click on the above to see this short powerful video. :cool:

[cmrmmm]

Not to ruffle and feathers here, but No one should be buying live animals from pet stores. Puppies for one come from puppy mills. The only places large enough to supply that many live animals at once. Puppy mills are basically mass breeding grounds for these little animals, where they are mistreated, neglected, malnourished, and bred until they die or no longer can produce puppies, in which then they are killed or left for dead. I for one will not purchase live puppies or kittens from any petstore. As for small animals and fish etc.. I haven't done the research into them, on where they come from, but I'm sure it's the same kind of conditions. If you don't know what puppy mills are or don't know the severity of them please do a google search on them and you'll see plenty of horrifying pictures, videos, testimonals, etc. Peta's website also has some video's and information on that matter too! Plus I forgot to mention, the puppies you purchase from these petstore are usually sick, or become sick with crontic conditions that usually result in early deaths. Also buying from these overpriced petstores you are supporting the people responsible for these horrible acts commited onto these innocent animals. There is plenty of good quality breeders out there to give you pure bred animals. Even pet shelter you will be able to find purebreds mixed in with the mixed breeds and all will come to you with the proper vet care and love and things that they need. Please if you are looking into opening a "petstore" think about opening a pet supply store instead, because it's not right to torture innocent animals, for the pure pleasure of money making!

[brandy pup]

Pet stores and puppy mills
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/breeding.htm#puppymills

[lockshockbarrel]

Yes Rhonda, it's exactly the same for rats, hamsters, birds, etc.

You could argue it could be worse for animals like rats and mice. They can have a litter twenty-four hours after they give birth, (and most do, since they never take the males out of the cage) and rodent mills supply not only pets, but research and feeder animals.

And, most people only care about the cute puppies and kittens, not the nasty rats.

[Strapking]

Not that I don't care about the whole animal feeding thing... I think that the main point in the begining of the thread was it is cost prohibitive. I agree with the posts that say you must have some kind of animal in the store just to bring in the customers, and I agree that hosting pets from the shelters is definatly the best idea. I would be sure to advertise this fact on every animal.

[StinaUIUC]

I haven't read this whole thread and I dont' want to get into any moral issues or anything here.....but as far as costs go.... The costs spent on breeding/keeping animals to be sold isn't made on the animals themselves.....its made on selling the supplies to go with them. People buy the animal...they need the cage, the food, the toys...... As far as the costs of keeping animals in the store...it wouldnt' cost as much for a store owner as pet owner. The food and supplies used would be bought in bulk by the store usually directly from the manufacturer (or a middleman still less expensive than retail)...thus making it significantly less expensive than retail.