Wingclipping

[Hagos]

I think everyone shoudl check out this article.
I for one found it very interesting. It brings up everything that i have said about the subject, and much, much more.
EVERYBODY with a parrot or other bird should chek it out.

Take care
//Steph and winged friends.

[BaBiLiCi0uZz]

uhmm...what's the article? i would really like to check it out

[Hagos]

SORRY!
Ah, i'm so stupid.. :-P
Here it is!
http://hartmanaviary.com/articles/flightedparrots.html

Enjoy!

[Hagos]

Any one read it?
I'd really love to hear some of the "clippers" inputs on this one.

Take care
//Steph and winged friends.

[Sorathien]

ok, i didn't read the whole thing because it's long and my attention span isn't, but i just clipped my cockatiels wings lasnight because he's flown into the window about 3 times since i've moved here, about 5 times when i lived with my parents, he's flown out the door twice since i've had him, and he goes tearing around my rather small appartment, making himself look like a fun toy to my cat. his wings were clipped when i got them, i clipped them once before, and he's recently molted and grown all his flight feathers back in, so i clipped them again.

i believe birds need to learn how to fly as babies. once they're good at flying, then its the owners choice to clip their wings or not. i happen to have an idiot spaz-parrot, so i clip is wings for his own safety. if i had a calmer bird that i was 99% sure wouldn't fly into windows or out doors, i might not clip their wings.

besides that, a bird with clipped wings can still fly short distances. right after i clipped his wings, Sora flew from one end of the appartment to the other and back with no problems.

[Hagos]

I have a cockatiel that was clipped when he got here. And he flies into window, walls, crashes, etc, just because he was cclipped to soon and has remained clipped since then.
Probably the case with yours, to. It takes time for a bird, alot of time, to learn how to fly again after being clipped.
There is no bird that you can say "will" or "will not" fly outdoors if you leave a door open. It is our responsibility as bird owners to make sure that does not happen.
If one thinks they cannot take care of a bird, then why get a pet that flys? (Not directed to you, Sorathien.)
Parrots are everything but calm. If i wanted a calm animal, iäd get a fish. :D
Sure, if i were lazy, i'd clip my birds wings a long time ago! But if i didnät think i could deal with the flying, i would not have gotten my Feathered friends.
They need to fly to feel as happy, and be as healthy, mentally and physically, as they can.
They did not choose to come here, so it is my responsibillity to make sure they can use their natural abilities and fell as good as possible with me.

I would not get a bird planning to clip it's wings, just as i would not get a dog if i wasn't planning to walk it.
If your tiel was as "calm" etc as you described it SHOULd be, something would be wrong with it, 'cause that's not how parrots work. ;)

Read the the rest of the article when you have the time. It's very interesting.

[Sorathien]

besides that, a bird with clipped wings can still fly short distances. right after i clipped his wings, Sora flew from one end of the appartment to the other and back with no problems.

sora was fully flighted for a few months and he was psychotic. he's much calmer and better behaved with clipped wings.

[Hagos]

psycotic? You mean like "alive" or behaving like a cockatiel should? ;)

Of corse she's calm, what is she going to do with her wings clipped?
They can't behave in a normal way with clipped wings.

If one choose to clip the wings, it is not for the birds sake, but because the owner cannot deal with a flying animal. But then i see no reason getting a bird in the first place?

Not directed to you or saying that you're lazy, sorathien. Just a few thoughts of mine.

[Sorathien]

no, i mean psychotic. he screeched constantly, he went tearing around the room like there was something after him, he always looked like there was snake in the "bushes" right over there that was going to eat him any second, head up, eyes wide, crest up, feathers flat. he hissed and bit at anything that came near him.

and this is a HAND RAISED BIRD.

[Hagos]

Then that probably had little to do with the flying.
Otherwise, cockatiels are "wild". They fly around like maniacs (Yaaayy, fun! :D) and they make noise.
The hissing and stuff could be that there was something there she was scared of.

I'd say, from what i have read abour her, what she needs is a tiel' fiend and her wings back.

[Sorathien]

yes, because your the expert on teils, huh?

if i could find someone who has the time and patience to deal with Sora, i'd give him to that person. i love him, but i'm running out of patience. i have enough on my plate right now, i'm lonely, and i'm trying to fill a void with pets that possibly cannot be filled and that's wrong. i never should have bought sora, but it's too late now. i'm doing my best, and if i could find him another home i feel comfortable with, i would.

[Hagos]

No, i am no expert. :)
But i have alot of experience with them, plus i have my little flock here. :)

I Think it is great that you are trying with him. (sorry i called him a she! :o)
I wish both you and Sora all the best, good luck however you choose to do.
Just know i am not trying to make you look like a bad petowner, i am sure you are great with your birds, cats, and whatever it may be. :)

Just that wingclipping is something that i have put a great deal of reserch into, and it is something i feel very strongly about.

So, any one else, beside sorathien read it? :)

[Brock Fluharty]

I did, and I agree. I mean I understand people not wanting their birds flying all over the place, but that would be like you getting a fish, and cutting hid fins off...(and it not hurting the fish). But then again, parrots are very adaptable animals, and maybe they could adapt to clipped wings by walking, or biting (WONDERFUL, lol). I personally, would not clip a birds wings. It makes them feel very, VERY, vulnerable.


Brock

[FemaleCheetah]

I just got done clipping my birds wings, and I must say it was VERY easy. Now I will be able to start the long process of training them. I have a second cage as well so I will be putting one of my budgies in their while I am working with each one. They probably hate me right now but its not like their feathers wont grow back cause they will and once they are tame I wont clip their wings anymore.

[Hagos]

Hi!
Why would you wan't to clip them to train them?
I've done perfectly fine with all my flighted birds, that don't make sense to me. This way they TRUST me, and i don't force the training on them.
THEY can decide for themselves when they are ready. With training an patience, they will become tame, and the realtionship between us is much better.
Clipping the wings and then separating them seems very unneccesary to me.
To scare, and separate a bird from it's mate does not seem like the beginning of a life-long, trusting realtionship to me.Yes, the wings do grow back, but the emotionall, and in some cases the psysical "scars" reamain. Like with our tiel Spike.
And, i sure hope what you are doing chetaah, or else the clipping may cause your birds a great deal of physicall pain, and the feathers won't grow back without som surgical help.
But, i trust you knew what you where doing.

True that birds are very adaptable, Brock. But a clipping is not like training them to eat new foods, live in a new cage, wich they dapt perfectly fine to. :)
Just like a human being crippeled for some reason, it takes a grat deal of time for the birds to handle their new situation. Not meaning that they will like it, just as no human will like or choose being wheel-chair bound.
True facts is that a clipped bird donät have the same potential to be as fit, and healthy both mentally and physically.

Take care everyone!
//Steph and winged friends.

[Human Slave]

I don't like clipping. If you don't want something flying around your home then don't get a bird as a pet. That's like getting a cat and then getting it declawed because it used it's claws on the furniture.

[Brock Fluharty]

I just got my cat declawed...

[Hagos]

:mad:
Is that even legal in the U.S!?

Both declawing, de-barking and all that madness is illeghal here. Why would anyone do that?
Cat's need their claws, it's a natural abillity for them to grip, and claw on things with them. Poor kitty.The only reason wingclipping is even allowed here is that is it temporary. (wich isnät alwas true, since people clip them on a regular basis.

I totally agree with you, "Human slave."
YUK! for things like theese.

[FemaleCheetah]

yes its legal here in the US... I was going to declaw my cats (which are both indoor only) but I decided against it and now I just clip their nails every 2 weeks and they dont scratch up the furniture or anything.

Hagos - how many birds do you have and what types?

[lovechick]

I dont clip my birds wings and I have my reasons for it. Most of the people with large parrots like macaws and cockatoos have no choice but to clip their wings because otherwise they would crash into everything... but then again my opinion on that, if you live in a small house or apartment, then dont get a big bird, the only exception is people who have enclosed aviary. I also think that it should be illegal to sell large cockatoos because way too many people get them because theyre pretty and lovable, lock the bird in a small cage with no interaction, the bird goes mad and starts to mutilate itself, or scream or bite...
There parrots are like little kids, would you lock a toddler in a cage the whole day? I wouldnt think so, the child will likely go crazy..

[Sorathien]

declawing a cat is a dangerous surgery that usually CAUSES more behavioral problems than it fixes. the cat is also in severe pain for months, possibly even the rest of it's life. they literally amputate the first segment of their toes.

i have a friend that had to declaw her cat because of severe agressiveness. the cat would attack her, like all out "KILL!!!" attacks, not just playing. after thinking about it long and hard, she got him declawed and he is much better. she only declawed him because she had literally tried every other option to calming him down and nothing had worked. he still has issues, but he's not psychotic like he used to be. that's about the ONLY cenario i can think of where declawing would be OK. there are all kinds of other options for protecting your furniture, like soft paws or just trimming their claws.

[Rallyo]

Hi. I read the article and I understand what it was trying to say, and in some ways I agree with it and in some ways I do not. I agree that flying is good for a bird and that they do like it and that flying is one of a birds natural abilities, but issues like safety I believe justify wingclipping. Even in a big house, a bird can still be badly injured from flying in to something like a wall or window, infact, in my opinion, in a bigger house a bird of any size has more time to take off, start flying, and pick up speed, which could result in the bird hurting itself worse than if it had less time to fly and build momentum. So in my opinion, the bigger the house, the more likely a bird will be hurt worse than it would in a smaller house. But in either situation, big house or small house, if a bird has the ability to fly around freely they could injure themselves. So when it all comes down to it, it is the bird owners decision to clip their birds wings or not. I do not think that either clipping or not clipping are bad, but think that it is up to the bird owner to decide what they feel comfortable with. So to end my comment, I would like to say that all of my birds wings are clipped from my little Blue-masked Lovebird to my Sun Conure, and I belive that they are both happy this way and are not stressing over not flying long distances because of the love and attention I give them and also because they have both been clipped since they were only weeks old.

[Hagos]

Hi!
I have 4 cockatiels and one (soon to be two) Senegal Parrots.

I know alot of people with large cockatoos, Macaws, and such. If provided the space they need, they are just as great flyers as budgies, cockatiels, poicephalus, pionus and other smaller species.
Keeping large birds in apartments and small houses might "work" but no one should get a bird if they can't provide the space they need.

I can't see what is not to agree with, since everything the article brings up is TRUE, and we have know about this for a long time.
A flighted bird, for the 100:th time, does not fly into things. They are exellent flyers IF they get a chance to learn.
There are alot more dangers to a clipped bird in a "normal" home, and, ofcorse, the physical and mental side-effects.
As i said, i have a clipped bird wich is the one getting hurt more then any other of mine. (Come to think of it, none of them has been in any serious trouble.
He, however, flyes into windows and walls because his poor vision, abillity to judge the distance between him and other objects, etc etc etc.
His keel bone is so thin compared to the others, since he could not develop a strong, good one because of lack of flying.
He is the one wich is most nervous, and since he could not fly earlier he bites, hard, instead of flying away like the other birds when they do not want something.

Sure it is every owners choice, untill us humans get some sence into us and make this procedure illegal, like it should be - exept for in the extreeme cases.
Clipped birds do not get as much exercise as they need, and aren't as healthy as they potentially can be.

If you really read the article carefully, you now know what a to early clipping (like you said yours was) can and will to a birds health and mentallity.

This is not directed to someone in here, just a personal thought and opinion.
But the reasons people clip a birds wings is not because of their security. It is either out of ignorance (in most cases, i've noticed), selfishness, or just that one's to lazy to watch over flighted birds.

Lovechick, that is wonderful. I am sure you, just like me, enjoys your flighted friends company. :)

Take care everyone
//Steph and winged friends.

[Hagos]

Just thought i might share theese pics of my babies. :-)
http://www.zoonen.com/res/user/211943/galleri/432035/p1010762_orig_SE.jpg

http://www.zoonen.com/res/user/211943/galleri/379023/hflj_orig_SE.jpg

http://www.zoonen.com/res/user/211943/galleri/379027/hfbk_orig_SE.jpg

http://www.nymfparakit.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10049/normal_a-flyg.jpg

http://www.nymfparakit.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10049/normal_P1010879.JPG

http://www.nymfparakit.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10049/normal_H-flyg.jpg

http://www.nymfparakit.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10049/normal_P1010882.JPG

Enjoy! :D
(Yes, our home isn't the prettiest one, but i'll have to do. ;))

[Sorathien]

birds with clipped wings can still fly. the first time Sora flew out the door he still had his wings clipped from when i bought him. he flew a BLOCK away and landed in someones yard, i was out calling his name and he chirped at me and i just kept calling him and we played "Marco-polo" until i found him. the second time he also had clipped wings and flew around our house twice and landed in the front yard where my mom grabbed him.

he can still fly around my appartment, just not for as long. he used to circle the appartment like 5 or six times when he was flighted, and my cat would jump up to try and grab him out of the air. now he can circle it maybe once and then he lands on my shoulder.

[lovechick]

Great pics Hagos, I like that perch playgym thingy :)

[Brock Fluharty]

Hagos, I would just like to point out that people CAN disagree with what someone else says. True, some of that stuff in the article is fact, but some is opinion also. I mean they may be wrong about some of that stuff. I mean, if someone wants to clip their birds wings, let them, don't contradict them! I clip my cockatiels wings, but then I make up for it by playing with him all the time. He is still happy. He actually knows that I clip them every month, and he knows exactly when. If I hold up the clippers, he jumps onto my arm and holds his wings out (only because he gets diced papaya afterwards), but it's cool anyways!


Brock

[Hagos]

Thank you, Lovechick.
I'm currently rebuilding the tree, it's starting to get a bit small for all five (soon to be six, hopefully) of them. :)

I am perfectly aware of that, thank yuou. BUT i do not agree with them. I have done my homework, carfully, and i stand for what i beleive in, and know about this subject.
Heh, you wanna se a happy cockatiel, you should se one flying!
They really love it, and cockatiels are known as "one of the best flyers in Australia for a reason, i asure you! ;)
Seeing them flly gives such joy to me, knowing that they have fun, gets more exercise then a clipped bird could ever get, they are confident, and happy.
Well, exept for Spike. He gets all of the BEST attention (the one from the birds of his own sopecie) and still there is alot of difference.
One clipping one time, on an adult bird, often does not cause damage (But very well can), it is this type of continous clipping, done from when the bird was a baby, and then being clipped continously that does the real harm.

As i have said before, clipping is a serious subject, wich many tend to take way to lightly. Birds NEED to fly, to be as physically fit and healthy as possible, this we know. Just as a dog needs to walk. The mental problems is another issue.
And as i've said before, hopefully this nonsense will be illegal soon, along with de-barking de-clawning and horrible stuff like that. :)

Take care
//Steph and winged friends.

[wingnut]

I have to comment on this clipped or non-clipped conversation. I have 6 and none are clipped. The house has been bird-proofed thoroughly and everyone needs to be in their cages when I cook. Birds are by their nature flying creatures, and clipping their wings is like trying to make your boyfriend stay around by cutting his legs off. One must be more careful with flighted birds, but why have a bird if you are unwilling to do everything necessary for its safety and happiness and health. I agree with you Hagos.

Linda

[Hagos]

I have to comment on this clipped or non-clipped conversation. I have 6 and none are clipped. The house has been bird-proofed thoroughly and everyone needs to be in their cages when I cook. Birds are by their nature flying creatures, and clipping their wings is like trying to make your boyfriend stay around by cutting his legs off. One must be more careful with flighted birds, but why have a bird if you are unwilling to do everything necessary for its safety and happiness and health. I agree with you Hagos.

Linda

:agree: :applause:

[wingnut]

You sound like my kind of bird-person, Hagos (absolutely no offense to anyone else!). Email me anytime at wingnutlinda@earthlink.net.

Aloha,
Linda

[Brock Fluharty]

I got my tiel from my aunt, and she regularly clipped his wings. What would happen if I stopped clipping them?

[FemaleCheetah]

I agree with wing clipping and I encourage it... I tell all of my friends who have feathered pets to clip away because it helps the birds to stay safe. I love how calm my birds are now and they are actually warming up to me instead of trying to bite me and fly away.

[Hagos]

I agree with wing clipping and I encourage it... I tell all of my friends who have feathered pets to clip away because it helps the birds to stay safe. I love how calm my birds are now and they are actually warming up to me instead of trying to bite me and fly away.

Well, as long as you and your friends don't have to watch after your birds, because that is just so hard.

"Calm"? Well, that's one way to describe it, i guess.
A more suiting description though, would be that they have nothing else to do. (they are budgies, right) budgies are one of the most active birds when it comes to flying, and suffers far more then a macaw, for example. (Even though macaws need their flying abillity just as mutch) They can hardly get around at all, because of their size, and are probably really depressed right now. Don't worry, the biting will come back harder then ever once they realize it is the only option when they don't want something, instead of flying away like they normally would.

Tell me some of the dangers that they can get them selves into when NOT clipped, and i swear i can give more they can get themselves into when clipped.

It is sad how some people get feathered pets, even though we KNOW they need to fly to be as healthy as possible, mentally and physically, and then clip them because it's easier. I've said it before and i'll say it again. If you want an "easy" pet, don't get a parrot.

This selfishness is really, really heartbraking.

[Brock Fluharty]

I agree with you on that Hagos, I mean people say that parrots could fly into a pot of boiling water, well if their wings weren't clipped, they wouldn't do a nosedive into it. if they are clipped, they will not have control and WILL fly into a pot of boiling water. Parakeet have very short legs, and can't get along very well with clipped wings. Just as Hagos said, you say calm, I say "miserable". I mean, it's not like if they're sad their gonna freak out and have a heart attack. They will be calm if they are sad, because the know they can do nothing about it. You destined those budgies to depression. Hope your happy!

Brock

[FemaleCheetah]

I dont consider myself being selfish... I am protecting my birds. Before their wings were clipped I was hardly able to take them out of their cage because they wouldnt want any contact at all and they would just fly into everything. Now they are more willing to be touched and they seem to enjoy it... they dont try to fly away or anything and they can still fly so I dont see a problem with it. My birds are sooo much friendlier now.

And yes they are budiges.

[wingnut]

Hi - with a brand new bird that is really wild and untamed (but so few of them are like this nowadays), I've occasionally resorted to some wing-trimming. That will give time to work with the bird as the wings grow back in. With a bird that has always been trimmed and you want to let the wings grow out, go ahead. The wing feathers will slowly grow back in, and as they do, the bird will become accustomed, slowly, to flying again, as it should. As to flying into pots of boiling water, or open toilets, put them in their cages when you cook, and close the toilet lid always. It's just part of having birds.

One more good thing about flighted birds is that they don't suffer obesity nearly as much as clipped ones, and screech less because they do get enough exercise and aren't as bored.

[Hagos]

I've had both budgies, Cockatiels, and helped others to tame larger birds, all without wingtrimming!

And the whole taming process, i don't think that is something you want to speed up. Those things should take time.
My forst cockatiel, Alex was about 2 years old, and store-bought, sadly. Newbie mistake.
It took me a month before she fully trusted me, let me scratch her neck, and was just adorable.
Birds that can fly are ALOT more confident, wich i think helps in the training.
They know that if they get close and they don't like it, it's okay, i'll just fly away when i get uncomfortable. An unclipped bird is just as easily tamed, and tamed "in a better way", as they decide what they want to do and how fast, wich creates a more trusting realtionship. :-)
If one decides to actually clip a bird for this reason, NEVER, EVER do it to a young bird, they have to be atleast a few years old before. (i am sure you know this, wingnut, just making it clear for everyone. ;))Even though adults suffer a great deal, the young birds takes the worst blow.


I agree with wingnut.
Just want to add, that it also depends on when the bird was clipped, and for how long.
If it never got a chance to learn how to fly, it will take ALOT of time, if the bird ever will fly as it could have. Do "flying exercises" (like let him sit on your hand, gently but fast lower it so he has to flap his wings) a ouple of times a day. This won't build much muscles or anything, but it's the closest thing you can get. He will slowly regain his abillity to fky, and in time, he will fly pretty well.
I am currently working on it with my Spike, to.

Chetaah.
Protecting them from WHAT, i'd like to know?
You know what. I had a bird once, when i was just a kid. My very first bird, from a petstore. SICK and miserable, he died the next day. I was amazed of how easy it was for me to "tame" him. The poor thing was depressed, felt sick, and didn't have the strength to do anything else.
I thought he enyojed it, to.
Crippled and depressed birds won't really say no, until they get over the chock.
What you consider "tame" is being forced to be petted.
And from what i've understood, you havnät even had them for that long?
How would you know how they would turn out later on if you didn't even give them a chance?
Well, well.

Take care everyone!
//Steph and winged friends.

[Brock Fluharty]

they dont try to fly away or anything and they can still fly so I dont see a problem with it.

They don't try to fly away becasue you clipped their wings! Birds that have their wings clipped don't "fly", they glide to their destination. It is very different. I, also, would like to know what you are protecting your birds from. If you hadn't clipped their wings in the first place, they wouldn't run into things. Clipping their wings causes them to lose their sense of vision. It will not completely disappear, but it will not be good vision for flying. That's why birds that have never been clipped don't "fly into things". And besides, if you clip your bird's wings, then your dog eat it because it can't fly away, is it still protecting it? They are actually more safe if they were never clipped in the first place.


Brock

[FemaleCheetah]

I have had my birds since March of 2004... I have tried everything to tame them and so I decided to clip their wings resently and now they seem to be alittle nicer and alot easier to be around.

Can you guys give me ideas on how to fully tame them??? I heard that they need their wings clipped to be tamed thats why I did it.

[Sorathien]

Hagos, i find your comments to be extremely ignorant.

when my cockatiel was UNCLIPPED, he flew around the house, into windows several times, got himself stuck in plants, fell in the sink, and the bathtub. he always seemed terrified, like something was out to get him.

when he was clipped, he still flies around the appartment, he just can't go quite as fast, making it less likely that he will run into things because he has more time to turn or land. i do not "force" him to be petted, he flies over to my shoulder and presses his beak against my finger, asking to have his head scratched. he sings to me and preens my hair, and he can STILL FLY. cockatiels are such strong fliers that even clipped they can still fly very well.

as for being obese from lack of exercise, Sora weighs exactly 3 oz. or 80 grams. he actually looks THIN to me, but he is a normal weight. and yes, i have a gram scale and weigh him regularly.

i find your comments about ANY and ALL birds with clipped wings being depressed and "forced" to be tame because they have no choice extremely offensive, ignorant, and eleitist.

[Sorathien]

i just want to clarify, because on another forum, they mentioned this a few times, i only trim the flight feathers when i clip my birds wings. on another forum, whenever a new person asking about wing clipping, the mods always had to make sure they didn't mean clipping the wing BONE. i don't see why on earth someone would do that, because THAT is abuse and i would never dream of doing such a thing. i ONLY clip the flight feathers, i do it whenever he molts after the feathers have grown back.

[wingnut]

Relax, Sorathien. What we offer in these forums is our opinions. Hearing other people's opinions offers us another point of view and makes us think. We might not completely agree, but we might also learn something. Insulting one another is not so good. Relax.

[Sorathien]

those weren't oppinions. Hagos and others were calling those who clip their birds wings bad bird owners. that's how i interpreted it. i wasn't insulting anyone. i feel that Hagos was insulting ME by saying that my cockatiel was depressed and only acted tame because he had no choice, because he couldn't get away. i don't need to "relax" i'm perfectly calm. i'm merely stating my oppinion as everyone else has stated theirs, and defending myself and my decision to clip my birds wings. i feel my bird is perfectly happy, even with clipped wings, and for my situation, and my bird, and my home, having his wings clipped is the right choice for both of us.

[Hagos]

That comment was for female cheetah, Sorathien.
The flying lika a maniac and into things is a result of to little exercise, or being clipped to little.
Yes, my Spike weighs 80 grams, to. That is a result of poor muslec and undeveloped keel-bone (and the whole bone-strukture, actually), and therefore he seems thin, even though he is not "underweight" (when it comes to body fat) nor is he overweight.
She did not say all birds that are clipped are overweight, but the chances of a bird becoming just that increases significantly since they cannot get as much exercise as a flighted birds.
My other birds, and Spikes sibling, wich are the exact same "size" as him, you can really FEEL the difference. They have thicker and more "robust" keel-bones, and are really well-muscled. They all get the same diet. This is a result of both an early clipping and staying clipped.

Opinions, and some facts, is exctly what it was. :)
MY opinion is, that people who buys birds with the intention of clipping them should get another pet, and i donät consider them good owners.
Nor do i consider those who clip their birds for selfish reasons, not saying any one here, just alot of people, selfish.
Those are my OPINIONS. :)
I am sure you are a great pet-owner, sorathien.

[Rallyo]

"MY opinion is, that people who buys birds with the intention of clipping them should get another pet, and i donät consider them good owners."

Hagos, even if it is "just your opnion", why does clipping a birds wings make the owner of that bird a bad owner? It is that persons bird, and that persons decision to make. If the person feels fine not having the birds wings clipped, that is just fine, but if the person feels comfortable having the birds wings clipped, that is also fine. What I think makes a bird owner not "good" is neglect of the bird and abuse of the bird, both verbal and physical. Wingclipping is neither neglect nor abuse. By clipping a birds wings you are not hurting it, but you looking out for it, and trying to make sure it is not harmed. I do not like it when people say birds are unhappy when their wings are clipped. How do people know what the bird feels? It's not like they are the bird. In my opinion, a happy bird is a bird that gets out of it's cage every day, always has fresh food and water, and gets love from its owner.
So in my opinion, a bird must not have to fly to be happy. I know that my birds are VERY happy just as they are, with their wings clipped.

[Sorathien]

when my cockatiel was UNCLIPPED, he flew around the house, into windows several times, got himself stuck in plants, fell in the sink, and the bathtub. he always seemed terrified, like something was out to get him.

when he was CLIPPED, he still flies around the appartment, he just can't go quite as fast, making it less likely that he will run into things because he has more time to turn or land. i do not "force" him to be petted, he flies over to my shoulder and presses his beak against my finger, asking to have his head scratched. he sings to me and preens my hair, and he can STILL FLY. cockatiels are such strong fliers that even clipped they can still fly very well.

did you even read what i said? or are you just totally incapable of admitting that someone else might have a valid point that isn't compattible with your own?

[Sorathien]

ALSO, since birds have no depth perception, as their eyes are on the sides of their heads, when sora was fully flighted, he would fly around the appartment 5 or 6 times because he could NOT find a place to land, he would fly right past several perfectly good places, like the top of his cage, my shoulders, etc. because he was going so fast, he did not have time to adjust his vision to see how far away they were. now that he's clipped, he will fly back and forth from my shoulder to his cage at will. and he does NOT "glide" he flaps his little wings and FLIES, he gets lift, and he flaps, i call that flying. besides that, i do not cut his wings as short as most people.

[Hagos]

ALSO, since birds have no depth perception, as their eyes are on the sides of their heads, when sora was fully flighted, he would fly around the appartment 5 or 6 times because he could NOT find a place to land, he would fly right past several perfectly good places, like the top of his cage, my shoulders, etc. because he was going so fast, he did not have time to adjust his vision to see how far away they were. now that he's clipped, he will fly back and forth from my shoulder to his cage at will. and he does NOT "glide" he flaps his little wings and FLIES, he gets lift, and he flaps, i call that flying. besides that, i do not cut his wings as short as most people.

?
The reason he did not stop was because he did not want to. They love flying, and they fly around several times just for the fun of it.
My birds can fly THAT fast, then exactly when they are over the tree, cage or whatever they stop and land. The reason he does not do so now is that it is to hard, and he can only fly short distances.

Soo.. you are saying wild cockatiels would miss the branch they are planning to land on?
That statement does not make sence to me.

[Sorathien]

no, i know that's not the reason because he would almost try to land on something, but miss it, and he would come so close to hitting walls, he actually smacked his wings into the pillar that's in the center of the room, and smacked right into the window several times, WHILE fully flighted. cockatiels in the wild have more space to maneuver and figure out how far away an object is before trying to land on it. SOra would often perform "crash" landings on the top of his cage, he'd come in towards it, grab onto the bars, but he was going so fast, he'd actually fall forward and smack his face into it.

you have not seen my bird, you do not know what he's like, you have not seen how he sings and flies around my appartment, even while he's clipped, and i find it EXTREMELY offensive that you would call me, or anyone else who chooses to clip their birds wings, bad owners, abusive, or whatever. my bird is tame because he loves me, he flies over to me and presses his beak against my finger and asks for scratches. i do not "force" him to put up with me.

depressed birds do not sing, and preen your hair, and do dances when they get their bathtime. they don't try to steal food off your plate or out of your mouth. they don't fly willingly to your shoulder and beg for scratches. they don't call for you when you leave the room. all things my bird does. leading me to believe that he is not depressed.

you have NO right to tell me i am a bad bird owner for choosing to clip my birds wings. it is a choice I made for MY bird, and it was the right one for ME. you do not know me, or my bird, and you don't have a leg to stand on. if you don't want to clip your birds wings, and that works for you, great, but DO NOT come in here telling me that i should give my bird away and get a different pet because i do something that protects my bird from harm, in my house, and my situation.

[Hagos]

Sounds just like my Spike!
Even though he's fully flighted righ now he still canät fly normally.

I have not said your bird is depressed, i am sure he is perfectly happy. Nor have i said you should give your bird away, birds should not have to move from home to home.

I think alot of missunderstandings have been made here sue to my poor Emglish, i feel i can't explain things the way i would like.
Have to go right no, but i promise i will answer you better when i get home and have more time.

Take care
//Steph and winged friends.

[wingnut]

Food for thought: when getting a bird, remember that we exist to make THEM happy, they shouldn't exist to make US happy.

We take them into our environment. That means we might have to make more adjustments in lifestyle than they do, and that seems only fair.

[Human Slave]

Keep in mind that when you feel insulted by someone's comments here that many people treat their pets as if they were children.

To some, clipping wings would be no different then tying down a child.

[Jessika183]

Sounds just like my Spike!
Even though he's fully flighted righ now he still canät fly normally.

I have not said your bird is depressed, i am sure he is perfectly happy. Nor have i said you should give your bird away, birds should not have to move from home to home.

I think alot of missunderstandings have been made here sue to my poor Emglish, i feel i can't explain things the way i would like.
Have to go right no, but i promise i will answer you better when i get home and have more time.

Take care
//Steph and winged friends.

Although I Havn't Written Anything In This Topic, I Have Been Following It Rather Closely. My Opinion Follows With Sorathiens. I Also Find You Have Been Some What Rude... I Also Do Not Think Its Because Of Your "Poor English" Your English Seems Perfectly Fine To Me :rolleyes:
And No You Never Said Sorathien's Bird Is Depressed But You Have Said People Who Have There Birds Wings Clipped Have Depressed Birds. Nor Did You Say You Should Give The Bird Away But You Did Say Bird Owners With The Intention Of Clipping There Wings Should Not Buy A Bird... I'm Not Trying To Be Mean Or Anything Just Stating My Opinion. :) :o

[Hagos]

If i said ALL BIRDS become depressed, i apologize, because that is not the right way to describe it in some cases. Don't know how to explain what i mean, tjough.. :rolleyes:
That i said, and i stand for that. :)

I did not consider that "mean", and of corse you have the right to state your opinion as the rest of us! :)

Anyways. :)
Just thought maby some of you here might be intersted in this.
I've discussed the topic with Gunnel Andersson, one of the leading avian veterinarians in Sweden.
Here is some of what she wrote to me:

"Jag tycker aldrig att man ska vingklippa en fågel som inte fått lära sig att flyga ordentligt och den ska först ha fått bygga upp styrka, muskelmassa och självförtroende.
En fågel mår självklart bäst om den får vara oklippt och får möjlighet att flyga mycket - motion och fysisk aktivitet är bra för alla djurslag. Vingklippning kan ibland även misstänkas vara bidragande orsak till att vissa papegojor, främst Grå Jako, börjar bita bort fjädrar."
Wich roughly translated means:
"I think that you should never wingclip a bird that has not learned to fly properly. Before you do the bird should have built up strength, muscles and confidence.
Obviously a bird feels best/is healthier(one word with two meanings.) if it remains unclipped and has a chance to fly alot - exercise and physical activity is essential for all types of animals. Wingclipping can sometimes be one reason that some parrots, escpecially African Greys, start biting/plucking feathers."

More and more behaviorists are starting to boycott clipping to. Now that is good progress! :-)
This is what Greg Glendell, a Parrot behaviorist wrote in another forum:
"I work as a full-time parrot behaviourist inthe UK.
As others have said, I would encourage you make sure your bird can fly as soon as possible. Flying birds should be taught flight commands. These include fly off me, fly to me and 'leave' (this means leave your present place and fly to another place, such as your cage). Birds should not be kept with clipped wings as clipping can cause far more problems than it solves. You do not have to wait for your bird to moult to gain new feathers. You can have a specialist bird vet imp donor feathers back onto your bird's wing(s). This restores flight immediately. If you need the feathers, just let me know which type you need (left, and/or right primaries) and I can send them to your vet for free.

Imping also protects clipped birds from from breaking their new 'blood' feathers as these grow down.

Hopefully, more people will dispense with wing-clipping as there is no need to cripple any bird in this way. Once flying birds are taught a few simple commands, they can be out of their cages as long as you are there to supervise them.
Greg Glendell. "

[LadyLynn]

I guess I'm rather opinionated about this subject, and find even after lots of advice, accidents, experiences and ten years of living with birds I still prefer my feathered charges to retain the ability to lift skillfully high into the air and get out of the way of danger if they can make it.

This is what I think & feel about the subject of clipping. Yes, owners choice, and there are too far many arguments on both sides of the picture to get into. But after reading about other people's parrots, and having my own it is fact not fiction that clipped and unclipped birds have minor, and fatal accidents.


My first bird was clipped badly, and very wrong, and our vet- with the three day guarantee said so. When we walked out the door, I said, "Honey, you remember what I said, Lexi will be allowed to fly."

In seven years Lex was clipped maybe once or twice and no more...... I didn't like the effects I saw it did to his little ego.


And another thing about running into windows in apartments and keeping wings clipped. Have you given it any thought that your apartment may be dark? If so, the eyes of your parrot changes and they like us don't see well either.

In the many moves we made as college students with little Lexi (Cockateil) We made sure he saw each and every room and spent enough time in all to know what doors stood opened and which ones didn't.

Running into windows? Only once that I know of, and even in the dark which he preferred not to he knew where to fly.

I think our birds deserve more credit than we humans give them.

Clipped or unclipped? I still chose for the parrots in my care to retain the gift of flight God blessed them with the day they were born.

[August]

Just my comments on this I think you need to address every bird differently. But every bird should know how to fly, even if you intend to clip, I recently purchased a pair of Quakers, the male fully flighted and the hen may never grow flight feather just because someone totally killed her wing tips. I let all my birds in my the flight room (not big enough) and when I first let them in their together, the male who had flight feathers but did not know how to fly tried to land on a t stand completely missed it and smashed into a wall, he started to have seizures and several bruises on his body, he was cleared by the vet after a few days, I clipped him, all my other birds are fully feathered and they’ll stay that way, but I had to, he now has three less feathers and doesn’t fly but glides around the room, he seems happier, because he has the option to even glide, and hope fully slowly as he molts out, he will learn to fly, and with some surgical luck his mate will too. When baby time comes around, all the chicks learn to fly of course they do a lot of the same thing that Bandit did, but they bounce, get up and do it again. I would also like to say that clipping in my opinion for training is gross, my female Quaker that may never fly was wild caught, a bird that’s only handled when going to the vet and when being weight the lady that owned her before me only handled her if she seemed ill or if it was vet time, so very inconsistent with training, however I can walk up to her perch and pick her up no problem I think a lot of birds suffer from this when they are clipped, and it is birdie depression. I don’t think it is possible however to make clipping illegal, its not possible for someone to check on every finch, sparrow and macaw in a country, to make sure they haven’t been clipped because ever tom, dick and sally can (or so they think) clip wings. Its like the pit bull debate, it won’t have an end.

[LadyLynn]

Grant it, I didn't mention there are exceptions to the rules such as a bird with seizures, and or other medical problems. A healthy bird?

Not in my book.

And of course the wild caught: I don't have enough information to process what I think about people keeping them.

I'm really oppossed to people just running out and catching a parrot because they want one or want to sell one.

If wild, let it be wild.

A bird with medical difficulities such as blindness needs a person who can monitor constantly, wings clipped most likely- "Here I don't have enough info again, but I would feel angry with myself for letting my dogs run around and have the freedom of the house if she couldn't.

All in the best interest of the bird, not in the best interest of the humans........."LadyLynn's view on Wing clipping."

All 4 of my feather charges are healthy.

[onebunnywuv]

I had Peter's wings clipped for quite a few reasons.

a) we live in the basement of the house, only the kitchen and bathroom have ceilings done properly, the rest of the rooms we can see the pipes and such. don't want Peter flying up there and burning himself on a hot pipe or flying into wires before our ceilings are put in (sometime in spring based on our renovation grant)
b) he hasn't been handled and so the chances of him flying away and hurting himself as mentioned above is way higher
c) he didn't have flight feathers on both wings, so having them clipped evenly was best so they can grow back

When he's older and trained and our ceilings are in, I might or might not get his wings clipped again. Lucy's wings aren't clipped, but she moulted and so we're waiting for her new feathers to grow in properly. She flies into the walls, windows, doors, etc and then falls to the floor. :(

[August]

[QUOTE=LadyLynn]And of course the wild caught: I don't have enough information to process what I think about people keeping them.

I'm really oppossed to people just running out and catching a parrot because they want one or want to sell one.

If wild, let it be wild.
[QUOTE]

I don't agree with catching wild birds either had i known at the time she was i probably wouldn't have taken her, but it was just to aid my point about how a wild animal seems 'calm' when their wings are cut.

[LadyLynn]

I've noticed that too, however, I really don't think clipping wings, especially immediately after it's done calms the bird in the least bit.

Instead: and it's all psycological on my part is that anything suffering a fresh wound stops to get a grip. Maybe he's dizzy? Maybe something happened, and is quite unsure, but definately felt it. Perhaps it hurts and we humans just don't think it does cuz they don't start screaming and whinning during the proceedure when done correctly.

I think it's more, Compose myself, make sure I'm really not threatened, and then when all is healed it's the Give me the gift of flight. "I am a bird you know," kind of thing.

That's what I really think the calm behavior is. We like it.....makes life easy for us, but I don't think it's that simple for them. :cry: