feeders goldfish as pets???

[onebunnywuv]

We have a lionfish that eats other live fish. We had to grab a few feeder goldfish since the store was out of minnows (which the lion was trained to eat btw). I was wondering if anyone ever actually kept feeders as fish for pets? They are kind of cute actually. My daughter (oldest) loves watching them swim, and since we have so many spare tanks (plus some in storage) I was curious if they'd survive as pets for awhile. My guppies are moving into a 10gallon after we move, my betta is moving into a 5 gallon, and I'll still have a 2.5gallon and a 5gallon empty tanks. Anyone know if they'll last? I know the fish store feeds them normal goldfish food.

[mr gerbil]

2.5 or a 5 for goldfish? Think nearer 100 gallons.
They'll also survive as pets for anything up to 40 years if looked after well, although 10-20 is more likely.

If you wanted to get goldfish, I'd recommend having 2-4 small ones in a 40 gallon tank to start with. When they grow, upgrade to around 100 gallons.
Goldfish need, in addition to a staple flake food diet, things like bloodworm, daphina, earthworms (yes, a use for earthworms!), and vegtables such as cucumber, potato, lettuce, corn, etc.
They also require regular attention, not stroking them and calling them adorable little darlings, but just talking to them, and moving your hand along the tank, that kind of thing.
They adore a planted tank, and natural light.

Still want goldfish? If you do, go for it.

[onebunnywuv]

I don't want the big goldfish. I already know how big they get, But the feeder goldfish that we have right now as food for the lion, don't usually get bigger than 2-3 inches. I was going to keep maybe one or two of them later. They don't look like the normal goldfish either, they're much prettier ;)

[onebunnywuv]

What I found online about tank info was that 15 feeders can be kept in a 5 gallon when used as food, or 2 can be kept in a 5 gallon as pets. They need lots of air (air stones work best) and light and yep they do prefer natural lighting ;)

Do you think it would be possible to keep one or two in my 5 gallon later? We have tons of fish foods around because of the diff types of salt and freshwater fish we have. :)

[Martina]

sorry for not helping but, what is the smallest type of goldfish? (even if it needs a big tank) :confused:

[Sorathien]

ALL goldfish, feeder, or fancy, grow to be 10-14" long and can live for about 25 years. keeping them in a small tank will stunt their growth......for a while......until their guts get too big for their body and rupture, their spines twist, and they die prematurely.

THERE IS NO SPECIAL BREED OF GOLDFISH THAT STAYS SMALL!!!!

why can no one understand that? they start out small, but they GROW.

frankly, i think its a bad idea to be feeding a goldfish other goldfish. the lionhead should have a friend or two of similar size, and be in a 30-40 gallon tank, upgraded as the fish grows. they should be fed veggies, flakes/pellets, brine shrimp, earth worms, and other things like Mr. Gerbil suggested.

does no one do research?

[onebunnywuv]

Who said the goldfish were being fed other goldfish??? We're using feeder golfish for the lion, not for other goldfish. I think you need to read my post properly. I didn't say lionHEAD I said LIONFISH. A lionfish is a saltwater fish that can be trained to eat other live creatures (minnows, silversides, krill, pieces of tuna and salmon even, feeder goldfish, ghost shrimp, etc). Our fish store gets all their feeder goldfish from a local breeder, and never have any of the feeders gotten larger than 4 inches. We were told directly from the shipment deliveries that these feeders will NOT reach longer than 6 inches even fully grown. They're supposedly not true goldfish, whatever that means.

I've seen all sorts of goldfish, from the pond comets (12-14 inches and bigger sometimes), the 'fancy' goldfish which I've seen have been about 8inches fully grown, the lionhead goldfish I've seen fully grown are about a good 10 inches. I've never seen the feeder fish get anywhere near that. The biggest I've ever seen for the feeder fish are about 4 inches.

So I'm asking about feeders. I can only find most websites telling the tank specifications for keeping them as food for other fish, not much found on keeping them as pets.

[mr gerbil]

15 feeders can be kept in a 5 gallon for about a day before they all die, unless you're doing constant water changes, and have a good (professional/commercial quality) filter.
If they survive any longer it's animal cruelty on a serious level.

As Sorathien put it, there is no special breed of goldfish that stays small. To be fair, some feeders don't grow to their potential because they've been stunted previously, or haven't been bred properly. But when you get a goldfish, you get a potential tankbuster.

If you're wondering what to do with the 5 gallon, keep daphina in it, or something similar. But not fish.

[Martina]

i hope your not mad at me, i was NOT asking what goldfish could fit in a small tank :rolleyes: i was asking what the smallest (even if very big) goldfish was. :( im sorry, i didnt mean there are tiny goldfish

[onebunnywuv]

no no Martina, not you. I was responding to Sor thinking I was feeding goldfish to another goldfish.

Currently we've got about 8 feeder fish in a 5 gallon right now, have done 3 water changes, and they're still swimming around just as much as they did at the store.

I decided the easiest thing to do is call the fish store. I asked them what type feeders they are. Comet goldfish (most common feeder goldfish btw) come in 3 sizes, smalls, mediums, and large. These are the smalls. They won't grow more than 3 inches. There are over a hundred different goldfish breeds (I've got a book on them somewhere) and reading online, I found one place that talks about breeding them. Generally a medium comet (3-5inches max) are used for breeding. Assuming this is true, I *could* keep ONE of these small comet goldfish in my 5 gallon tank. Now I did say *assuming* so it could be true and it could be false. In any case, I'm going to keep ONE for a pet. It doesn't need a heater since every place I've looked online says goldfish are cold water fish. It does say they need plenty of aireation, so a big airstone (the long type that goes under the rocks works best) is fine.

Thanks for the input, I think I'm done :)

[Martina]

ok thanks :)

[Deiwos]

Jeez guys, you really don't have to be so rude. Sorry that everyone doesn't know everything about goldfish! And s/he specifically said that they were intended as feeder fish originally. They didn't go in to buy them as pets. And s/he (sorry :)) did do research; the information on the internet isn't always right.

Taking the rudeness aside, I'm sorry onebunnywuv, but they're right. Feeder goldfish don't get big because, well, they get eaten. If you gave them more time, they'd reach their full size of 10-14" each. Unless you're using a different kind of fish for feeding, like a fish that's just colored gold, like a platy (I doubt it, just a suggestion). Goldfish are really very messy and, as has been said, get massive. You'd probably be better off feeding them to your lionfish, since the goldfish will probably cause you a lot of grief when they get big and poop more than you do :)

[mr gerbil]

You're going to keep a comet in a 5 gallon, then.

Chances of it dying in first month: 70%
Chances of it dying in first year: 99%
Chances of it living a polluted, stunted, existence, and dying before the end of it's natural lifespan: 100%

Get the idea? Good luck killing fish. If you can't listen to what people are trying to tell you, and go ahead with it, we can't stop you. Good luck comforting your daughter when her fish die soon.

[Sorathien]

no no Martina, not you. I was responding to Sor thinking I was feeding goldfish to another goldfish.

Currently we've got about 8 feeder fish in a 5 gallon right now, have done 3 water changes, and they're still swimming around just as much as they did at the store.

I decided the easiest thing to do is call the fish store. I asked them what type feeders they are. Comet goldfish (most common feeder goldfish btw) come in 3 sizes, smalls, mediums, and large. These are the smalls. They won't grow more than 3 inches. There are over a hundred different goldfish breeds (I've got a book on them somewhere) and reading online, I found one place that talks about breeding them. Generally a medium comet (3-5inches max) are used for breeding. Assuming this is true, I *could* keep ONE of these small comet goldfish in my 5 gallon tank. Now I did say *assuming* so it could be true and it could be false. In any case, I'm going to keep ONE for a pet. It doesn't need a heater since every place I've looked online says goldfish are cold water fish. It does say they need plenty of aireation, so a big airstone (the long type that goes under the rocks works best) is fine.

Thanks for the input, I think I'm done :)



ok, first of all, ANY pet store in america, take what they have to say with a handfull of salt because they're dead wrong about 75% of the time.

Comets do not come in three different sizes. they come INTO THE PET STORE in three different AGES making them appear to be three different sizes. but all the fish will grow to be the same size eventually.

i have an 8" long comet right now in my pond.

yes, there are over a hundred different species of goldfish, and not ONE of them stays 3-5 inches long naturally. they'll stay that size because their growth is stunted and their lives end prematurely because their insides keep growing and rupture, NOT because they were full grown and died of old age.

also, just because someone knows how to breed a goldfish (which is NOT hard, they breed like rabbits) does not mean they know JACK about their proper care.

lets just assume for a moment that you did manage to find the only goldfish in existance that will magically stay 4" long forever.

this magical goldfish will need a friend. they are not schooling fish, persay, but they do enjoy the company of other fish (other goldfish and koi) and will form a loose sort of group as they swim around together. how are you going to fit TWO magical 4" long goldfish into a 5 gallon tank? when the rule is 1" per gallon?

not to mention that goldfish are horribly dirty fish, they produce far more than their fair share of waste, and they even need MORE room than other, cleaner types of fish to keep the water quality from jumping around all over the place.

that brings me to the fact that the smaller the tank, the faster and easier it is for the water quality to take a dive and kill your fish. in a larger tank, there is more water for pollutants to be spread around in and diluted in before they become a problem. in a small tank, even a small increase in pollutants can send your whole tank spinning into a toxic waste dump.

sorry, if you dont want to listen to people like Mr. Gerbil and me who know what we're talking about, good luck killing your fish in a couple weeks, because thats whats going to happen.

[onebunnywuv]

You know, I think I'm going to stick with what the store told me. They have a tank the size of a bathroom and they have a lionfish in there. They keep their own fish to feed to their fish and not once have the fish EVER reached full length or past 4 inches like I told you. This store has been here 15+ years. The owner works there full time, unlike a lot of store where the owner just hires people and stays in the background. I've been going to this store for over a year. I've seen their feeding tanks in the back. They've had the same feeder fish for over 6 months and they're still not longer than 4inches. If their growth has been stunted, it's been by the breeder. Since I don't have my 5 gallon with me atm, I can't keep one of the feeders right now. I don't remember saying I was going to keep one right now. Just said I was going to keep one. We buy feeders weekly. If I decide to now OR later, it's not hard to buy a new tank.

I'm done with this thread now, you can keep posting if you all want :)

[gizmo pig]

You're wrong. I'm sorry, but three of the most knowledgeable fishkeepers I've even seen just gave you phenominal advice and you rejected it, several times in a row.

First of all, goldfish are crap food. You should never feed freshwater fish to saltwater fish, they don't have the right nutrition. Godfish in particular are almost completely fat.

If you are not going to keep them now, I suggest taking some more time to look at the posts on this topic here. Or look at any other decent fish forum. You'll see your sorely wrong.

[onebunnywuv]

Let me go over these points for you all in one post:

a) we got feeder goldfish because our original feeder fish weren't available
b) all my research online AND info from the store said they don't get larger than 2-4" max (I did also say it could or could not be true)
c) I did mention I know how big goldfish get
d) I mentioned the sizes of tanks I'll have available after we move and asked if it could be kept it one "for now" meaning temporarily, didn't say I couldn't buy a new one
e) I said I plan to keep a feeder as a pet, did not say when since I don't know
f) I've had goldfish before, I've never used feeders before. I had *ONE* goldfish for over 7 years. Got him in 3rd grade he died while I was in 10th. I'm well aware what they need
g) I was under the impression that feeder goldfish are NOT the same as regular goldfish. It's been pointed out that they are. I can accept that

Thanks for the input, I DID read what was said. When I get my goldfish set up, I can easily cycle a much larger tank. It's not an issue. I was asking about temporary. Just let this thread die now :) It's been pointed out repeatedly and nobody is even paying attention to everything being said.

[mr gerbil]

The point is that 5 gallons is too small for any goldfish. If you've got a couple of very small ones, and you want to keep them in a smaller tank for the time being, a 15-20 gallon might suffice, although I wouldn't recommend it.
You'll be doing yourself and the fish a favour if you get a big (with comets, that's 150 gallons or more) tank, and put them in there straight away. Then you can sit back and relax, watch them grow.

[Sorathien]

or build a pond. they do really well in ponds, and its cheaper to build a pond (i think) than to buy a 150 gallon aquarium.

our pond is above ground and probably cost us $150 to put together, including the pump.

[fishfirst]

I would HIGHLY recommend you to get your lionfish on a proper diet. The pure ignorance by this PETSTORE OWNER who has apparently been CARING for fish for over 15 years is sad and purely inconcievable. HE IS FLAT OUT LYING TO YOU if he told you that a lionfish will be fine with feeders. Most avid saltwater people know that feeders are horrible (especially fw feeders) for saltwater fish. Definately start feeding frozen krill, silver sides, etc to this guy or he's gonna die from malnutrition.

[mr gerbil]

or build a pond. they do really well in ponds, and its cheaper to build a pond (i think) than to buy a 150 gallon aquarium.

Ditto. Ponds are the best option for comets. (and many other types of goldfish, for that matter).

[onebunnywuv]

I would HIGHLY recommend you to get your lionfish on a proper diet. The pure ignorance by this PETSTORE OWNER who has apparently been CARING for fish for over 15 years is sad and purely inconcievable. HE IS FLAT OUT LYING TO YOU if he told you that a lionfish will be fine with feeders. Most avid saltwater people know that feeders are horrible (especially fw feeders) for saltwater fish. Definately start feeding frozen krill, silver sides, etc to this guy or he's gonna die from malnutrition.

Our lion DOES eat silversides, krill, shrimp, etc. Please read everything. We trained our lion to eat live fish (minnows) and he gets plenty of other food. If you looked on the 2nd page, you would have seen I mentioned what we feed our lion. :rolleyes:

[onebunnywuv]

Sor, could you give me an approximate size (height, length, depth) of a pond and how many fish it could hold? I can do an above ground one in the spring since we bought a house. And what did you make it out of? I've seen a few made with bricks and a water sealant and thought they looked cool. I'm sure my daughters would be much safer with an aboive ground pond than an in ground. ;)

[fishfirst]

actually I did read it and it was not mentioned, and the simple fact that you still getting feeders for this fish that are freshwater feeders is still wrong. He is not "trained" to do it... rather he would like to have live foods than dead BUT it is a HUGE no no in saltwater... not only are you subjecting your fish to unhealthy food, but he also can get the brackish water ich from these unhealthy foods.

[onebunnywuv]

actually I did read it and it was not mentioned, and the simple fact that you still getting feeders for this fish that are freshwater feeders is still wrong. He is not "trained" to do it... rather he would like to have live foods than dead BUT it is a HUGE no no in saltwater... not only are you subjecting your fish to unhealthy food, but he also can get the brackish water ich from these unhealthy foods.


Yes, he IS trained to eat it. We trained him to eat live fish (minnows or feeder goldfish, ghost shrimp). He's had plenty of other foods. We have a freezer section full of foods for our saltwater tanks. Krill, silversides, mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, squid. We've got plenty of foods to give him. We use the feeder fish to train him to eat when we go to the tank. We use a clamp around the back tail of the fish, attach the clamp to a stick and dangle it in the tank. When we attached dead fish, we simply wiggle it so the fish looks alive. Easy trick and the lion eats. He eats what we feed him because he's been trained to.

[fishfirst]

I'm sorry but I'm having trouble seeing the point in the dead fish on a contraption like that. What kind of dead fish is it?

[onebunnywuv]

Dead silversides, dead krill. As I said, we trained our lionfish to eat what we have on our feeding stick contraption. Whether it's dead or alive, he'll eat it because he's been trained to eat what's on the stick. We don't just toss a fish into the tank and let him attack it.

[fishfirst]

then where do the feeder goldfish and "minnows" come from???

[onebunnywuv]

The minnows and feeders are what we're using to train him with. It doesn't happen overnight. Every day we have to try to get him to eat from us. We have to keep him seperated from the rest of the fish and creatures in our saltwater tanks. When he's at the point where he eats ONLY what we give him, then he can spend him time entirely in the open tank and not in a section of his own. He's about 4-5 inches right now and he can eat about 2 fish a day. Usually he'll eat a minnow or feeder goldfish, and then he'll eat a silverside or krill. Once he's completely trained, we can get rid of the feeders completely and leave him entirely on silversides, krill, shrimp, etc. This is the way it was explained to us by fellow saltwater owners of lionfish. You start them off with one live fish per feeding. The second fish needs to be a dead fish (kept frozen, but unthawed for feeding). When the lion shows interest only in eating what's given to him, try feeding him just the 'frozen' foods. When he eats the frozen foods only, then its safe to allow him full range of the tank. When we first got our lion, we had a friend (saltwater tank owner for years) come over to help us. He's got a fully grown lion (10 inches right now, about the size of a basketball). This was how he trained his and how he helped train other peoples lions. :) Does this make sense now?

[Sorathien]

fishfirst, just shut up. your not making any sense and your just blabbering on and on about nothing.



anyway, as for my pond, its about 6 feet long, three feet wide, and 18" deep. we used broken concrete and large stones to build the outside and lined it with a pond liner with an extra layer of stones around the top to hold the liner in place and hide the rough edges. it is dug in about 6 inches, but its under a tree so we ran into roots and had to stop. it holds roughly 150 gallons of water and right now we have 8 fish in it, but they are not full grown. we've got a 6" comet, a 6" shubunkin, three 6" koi, one 4" koi, one 8" koi, and one 10" koi. they are outgrowing it and we're going to build a larger pond on my parents new property.

you could probably put about 4 adult goldfish in that pond. its not even near big enough for even one adult koi though. adult koi need a pond thats at least 3 feet deep.

we have a 250 gallon pump, and we built our own filter out of a 5 gallon bucket, some PVC fixtures, and some furnace filter.

[Shrelana]

Umm...as long as the other fish in your tank are too big to fit in your lionfish's mouth...he won't eat them...

[mr gerbil]

Let's get this straight- do you put a hook through a live fish or merely clamp it? Either way's fairly sick.

[onebunnywuv]

Right now the lion is the biggest fish, second to him is a clown fish roughly 2.5inches. We have 2 other clown fish, both under .5 inches long.

MrGerbil, no, we don't use a fish hook. The hook could get caught in the lions mouth.

Sor, that pond sounds cool. We have a nice sized back yard, about 700 sq ft at least. We have plenty of side/front parking, and no vehicle, so we're actually removing the garage and fencing the entire yard off after. It'll give us another 50 feet or so. I think I'll look into getting a pond set up during the spring. We could use the cement from the driveway/garage to make the pond outline. :D Thanks for giving your dimensions. Gives me an idea of what to work with.

[onebunnywuv]

fishfirst, here are some links just for you.

http://www.animal-world.com/encyclo/marine/lions/lions.htm (quote from site: In captivity they eat mainly live feeder fish and sometimes frozen lancefish or silversides)

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/RedLionfish/RLionfish.html (quote from site: The red lionfish is a solitary predator of small fishes, shrimps and crabs)

http://www.petco.com/caresheets/fish/Lionfish.pdf (quote from site: Feed three to four times a week. Feed live fish in the beginning, gradually enticing them to eat other foods. Thaw frozen foods before feeding and vary diet to maintain health)

[Sorathien]

here is a picture of our pond from a couple years ago. its a little different now, but not much.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/Celeste_Eden/P4100051.jpg

[mr gerbil]

Thank god you're considering a pond. :)

Just to clarify- you tighten a clamp over the rear of a live fish and dangle it in the water?

[fishfirst]

Sorathien - I was definately under the impression that they were feeding them goldfish and fw minnows to the lionfish as a STAPLE, and using them to train him to eat dead fish. Telling me to shut up will not help anything... I have only good intentions as I know a lot about saltwater including several other ways of getting the lion to eat his meal without the use of a clamp and such. So I'm sorry about the misinterpritation and all the confusion.

[onebunnywuv]

Yes Gerbil, we use the clamp over the back fins of the fish, dangle it in front of the lion and he snaps it up right away. Same with the dethawed fish from the freezer. We were using a turkey baster at one time, but as he grows, we have to get bigger fish. ;) The clamp isn't very tight either. We hold it tighter while we move the fish to the tank, but we keep it loose once Lion sees it :D The feeder tank is right above the SW tank. About 15 seconds from the time it's clamped to the time it ends up in Lion's mouth.

Sor, that looks awesome. :D Those are fake plants right? The plastic ones? I love that lilypad. I can't see any fish in it though? Are they hiding?

[gizmo pig]

An excellent pond plant is anacharis. They're tough as hell, resistant to cold, spread like weeds, and the goldfish will ocassionally muntch on them to get some nutrition.

[mallyrk]

I came into this post a little late... but im kinda disturbed about what this pet store told you...
I OWN a pet store... Trust me, I see gold fish out the wazoo everyday. They do not stay small.. none of them. Comets, koi, feeders, fancy, oranda, ... doesn't matter what kind.. It doesn't matter if the ones you bought are 3'', they are not going to STAY 3''.
Hopefully you do consider a pond they are great for growing goldfish, and beautiful to look at. :)
In my opinion.. goldfish arn't the best foods to feed.. anything actually. Especially saltwater fish.. Its like your feeding nothing.. They are rarly fed if at all during their life. And most pet stores don't feed them either. They have no nutritional value what-so-ever for your lionfish.. So im glad your feeding other things besides goldfish.
On another note.. Lionfish rock... We have a 9'' on display in our store. do you have any pictures ??

[Sorathien]

the only fake plant is the blooming lilly pad. the rest are real. we even put water cress in the basin under the water feature. we removed the hostas as they didnt like being in water and planted them in the back yard and replaced them with this tall spiky plant thats taking over, its gotten HUGE. all the floaters died over the winter, and we just put whats called a "bog vine" in that end of the pond. the pot is under water, and it sends vines up to the surface with leaves on it that kind of floats along the surface.

and yeah, the fish are all hiding. i think at this time they were also rather small. they're either hiding under the fountain, or under the floaters. they're much less timid now that they're getting bigger.

[fishfirst]

^ like mallyrk said is what I was trying to get across... and while websites may say it is what a lionfish eats, goldfish is not a substitute for frozen stuff that actually comes from the sea, or live stuff that comes from the sea. It is important that you are doing what you are doing and I am glad to hear that you will be weening him off goldfish and other feeders.

[onebunnywuv]

This is our lion :) He's actually pretty tame. Hubby was working in the tank re-arranging the rocks and the lion kept his distance. Though hub did get attacked by the lobster (itty bitty little inch long guy lol)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/onebunnnywuv/lionfish.jpg

[mallyrk]

aww he's gorgeous!

Pretty tank.. :)

Ive gotten stung by one a lil bigger.. that was a painful experience!!! :rolleyes:

[onebunnywuv]

Thanks :) We've got about 15 lbs of live rock, and about 10 lbs worth of corals and frags. lol ;) He's a cute fishie. I keep reminding hub every time he works in the tank "Use the arm length gloves, it won't hurt you" but he never does :rolleyes: Can't wait to get our big tank set up once we move. :D Only a month and a half to go Yippeeeeeee

[fishfirst]

yep those lionfish got some nasty toxin! He looks pretty darn good... glad he's happy!