Backyard Breeders

[Shrelana]

As many of you know, my parents bought a saint bernard puppy about 4 months ago. Well one month after they brought her home, she started limping real bad. At six months of age, she has been given a prognosis of living until she is 2 or 3 if she is lucky! :( She has severe hip displacia and deformed knees (all four). Both are genetic disorders which would have been discovered before breeding had the breeder cared to have their dogs tested medically before breeding. There is a surgery that would have a 5% chance of giving her longer, however it costs $10,000. And there is a 95% chance that not only will it not help but it will make her worse. Right now she is on pain killers that are the equivalent to morphine in humans. She has to have one of these twice a day. Otherwise, she can't even walk. But when her meds have kicked in, she's just like any other puppy. It breaks my heart to know that within the next 1 to 3 years, she will be dead. All because some creeps bred their dogs without testing.
To anyone who is reading this, I am posting this so that you can see one of the many risks of buying your dog from a backyard breeder. If you want a dog, either rescue it or buy it from an accredited breeder. Lets try to stop this from happening, little by little, we can make a difference! :( :mad:

[Human Slave]

I'm sorry about your poor puppy. When I was a child our then neighbours bought a husky from a BYB and pretty much the same thing happened to it as your little guy. :(

BYB are scum. Soooooo many say "hey my dog's healthy" and go ahead and breed him/her only going by normal vet checks and not bothering with the important tests.

My own BYB dog has had to been rushed numerous times to the vets throughout his life because he'd take an allergic reaction to something. It took years and a lot of $$ to finally get him stable but he still has to take multiple pills a day (will have too for the rest of his life) to stay healthy.

[Shrelana]

in the 4 months they've had her, she's been to the vet at least once every 2 weeks...... :( the vet said that by the time she's 3 it will end up being more merciful to euth her.....because by then, she will not be able to walk anymore.

[Human Slave]

that so sad. :(

I hate BYBs.

[lneill84]

Thats the problem with buying from breeders that you have no history from. Unfortunatly, because of that breeders irresponsilbility, your poor dog has to suffer. The best thing in the future is to make sure you buy from a reputable breeder, and make sure that they are health tested. Many breeders offer a health guarentee, and dysplasia is not present in dog's whose parents do not have it. Its been linked genetically. You need to look at pedigrees from generations back. I can tell you right now the surgery isn't worth it. My neighbor's english mastiff had it, and they did do the surgery. It helped for a few months, but they ultimately still had to put him down. I wish your pup the best of luck, and at least a painfree couple of months. With her growing so rapidly, it will do nothing but aggrevate it.

[Shrelana]

that's why she's on painkillers so often. The prob with the painkillers is that the sideeffect is that she can only have a little dogfood at a time or she will throw it all up as we found out yesterday and today......we didn't limit her food intake, and she threw up her entire serving that she'd just eaten, approximately half a bowl, and then some.....I actually almost threw up after cleaning up a vomit pile that was about 12 inches in diameter as well as 4 inches high....:( talked to the vet, and he said to try to limit her eating as the pain meds are doing their job....she is able to be a normal puppy for about 5 hours everyday.....and I'll tell you, we value every minute of it.......and she pulls hard....I have bruises on my knees from tug-of-war :)

Side note, next dog will probably be a shelter dog :) The reason they got casper when they did is they saw the conditions she and the other pups were in and decided to get one out of there. I don't know if I mentioned it, I think I did, my folks are in the process of pressing charges against the breeders, because the pups were living in their own fecal matter as well as eating it. Casper was skin and bones when mom and dad brought her home......I know she'll be happy while she's here, and I don't look forward to the day that she has to be put to sleep....

[FemaleCheetah]

2 of my dogs are from BYB and so far 2 of them are allergic to something. I have an AKC sheltie who is afraid of everything (but coming around) and I think she might have even been from a BYB.

[Shrelana]

Here's an idea, lets open this up for anyone with experiences with BYBs to post to try to warn ppl away from them showing them what is happening to us....maybe one by one, we can make a difference :) May sound idealistic, but hey, I'm thinking of the starfish story tonight :) Let me know if I have to reiterate it :)

[Human Slave]

Good idea! :)

Rusty, my BYB dog I mentioned (the one who is allergic to everything had had to be rushed to the vets numerous times after suffereing a reaction) also has cushings disease. Fun.

He also has a bad eye that needs to be cleaned and have drops put in it every night. More Fun.

Honestly Rusty has had so many illnesses over the years I've forgotten half of them. I hate thinking about what could have happened to him if he hadn't come to live with us (he was a gift from my uncle and was 1 of 2 puppies left so anyone could have gotten him).

Really, it's because of Rusty why I hate BYB. Rusty didn't deserve any of this and his "breeders" were only out to make a quick buck and have some cute puppies. They obivously didn't care about the health of the puppies or their own dog.

Rusty's definitely not the normal type of dog someone thinks about when they hear the word "purebred".

[Shrelana]

what did they say Rusty was? or do you not know? I remember when my parents were breeding dogs, we had one guy that wanted to take one of our shihtzu puppies ( not I do not know for certain if they were BYB or not, I was 8 when we stopped breeding, and I don't remember much from back then) had a "pure bread shih tzu" with him that he wanted to breed a female to.....the "pure bread shih tzu" was the size of a full grown collie.......

[Shrelana]

Is there a way to get the posts we put on this particular post to stay near the top of the forum, so that even when no one is replying, new people to the forum can look at the stories to see why BYBs are a bad idea?

[Human Slave]

Rusty's a Lhasa Apso. He is purebred but one doesn't normally think that a PB dog would have so many illnesses. ;)

My other dog (also from a BYB) was supposed to also be a PB Lhasa but turned out to be crossed with a Cocker Spaniel. :rolleyes: Fortunately she's been healthy throughout most her life but now is starting to get arthritis (I'm not sure if the arthritis is apart of her breeding or just because she's getting older).

Both my dogs are 12 (Rusty will be 13 in 2 months though) and any next dogs will be from the shelter. :)

[RavenRose]

Is there a way to get the posts we put on this particular post to stay near the top of the forum, so that even when no one is replying, new people to the forum can look at the stories to see why BYBs are a bad idea?I don't think so, we'll just have to make sure we bump it a lot.

My parents had cocker spaniel that we got before everything about the BYBs and puppy mills was such common knowledge (about 16 years ago). My cousin worked at a pet store in the Chicago area and they had a litter of cocker puppies for only $25 each because there was something wrong with their knees. They said that the knee joints weren't formed properly or something, but they would grow into them alright, they'd just have really bad arthritis when they got older. Oh, and if they didn't sell them all and they went back to the breeder they'd be put down. So, my aunt and my mom each took one. What they said was true, he didn't have any problems until he was older, but then he got to the point where he could barely walk and had to be given an asprin every day.

Also, one of my friends currently has a yorkie that she got from a pet store in Florida, and he's pretty much the same way. Her vet said he has sliding kneecaps and will most likely need surgery, but the surgery may not actually do anything... I don't remember what the percentages are.

[jdking]

So what you guys are saying is that all BYB are bad? i am a little confused becase my friend had labradodles and they turned out perfectly fine. i guess that is just a succes story. well i am still breeding my dogs which are papered aca so just because im a BYB doesnt mean that i am a bad breeder is it.

[Norman]

labradoodles are another name for mutts - why would you deliberatly dilute the gene pool and breed mutts? The dogs may be papered but unless they shown with titles the papers it mean nothing.

[jdking]

Well they did have papers but the kennel they were kept in caught on fire so they dont have those dogs anymore. this just happened monday

[maryjane238]

AHHH - NO! Do not respond to this idiot.

[Punkygirl0101]

Our old next door neighbors were horrible people. They had two not even purebred labs that they bred. They bred them whenever they were in heat. Both the dogs, along with any puppies they had, slept outside in a dog house. It didn't even matter if it rained, they didn't care. I remember multiple times, my mom and I would go in their back yard and take the puppies and the dogs to our house til it stopped raining, sometimes til their yard dried up. They finally moved out, and they left their dogs behind. We found the dogs homes.

I still can't believe someone could be that into the money to not even care for the puppies who were freezing outside.

[maryjane238]

Punky - how are your puppies doing? better I hope?

[Punkygirl0101]

my puppies are doing great. One of the three was finally well enough to go to his permanent home with his brother. We are keeping the remaining two. One, Bobby, the one who was the worse of the 3 still has some digestive problems and still has mushy stool, but I am glad to say he is finally playing and barking like puppies are supposed to do.. :)

[mallyrk]

good punky.. I was wondering about how they were doing. How old are they now??

[Punkygirl0101]

they are 3 and a half months old as of today..

[maryjane238]

that's great to hear! i'm glad they are doing so much better

[mallyrk]

My grandmother has an lhasa apso. Got him from a BYB a couple years ago at 5 weeks old. He is now two with severe hip problems and is already going blind. They can't afford the surgery to fix his hip.. it was estimated at almost $10,000.

My aunt has a lab she got from a petstore. She had TERRIBLE time housebreaking it and crate training it. She tried EVERYTHING. It has really bad knees and a slight limp on its right back leg. The three vets she took it to can't figure out what it is. They think the bone grew wrong..

A friend of mine has a basset hound.. it has really bad knees at age three.. It is also having back and hip problems already.

Another friend who rescues dashunds got a ex- breeder male dashie.. he is 5 and can't walk. He is paralized from the hips down. He has to be carried everywhere or put in a man made wheel chair.

It's very sad... but that's what happens when you don't breed to streghen the standard and the breed..

[Shrelana]

I'm really glad ppl are posting their stories here :) maybe we'll make a difference :)

[lneill84]

Wait 5 years and see how healthy all the mixed breed dogs are like the puggle, labordoodle, etc. Just because your dog is registered doesn't mean squat. There are so many bogus registries out there. The AKC is the only one that matters, and its beginning to matter even less and less. The breed standards for dogs are going down every year. AKC has developed a program, sort of like an excellence program. Only the top dogs, that have been shown and seen to be breed correct are given the seal of approval. You can't get a crappy dog from 2 nice parents. It just doesn't happen. But with all these concocted dogs running around, its bound to happen that the dogs start going downhill even further.

[mallyrk]

Yep.. just like after the real 101 dalimations... all the BYB everywhere were breeding them... It ruined the breed... you can't find a good one anywhere.. All have defects of somekind.. it's sad because they are such beautiful dogs.

:(

[RavenRose]

One of the ladies I work with has a border collie lab mix that is about 8 months old... She got her from a BYB.... She's very high strung and somewhat dog aggressive. When she got her, the "breeder" still had some puppies from the litter before her, and she was in my store the other day wanting to sell more puppies from the same parents. So, basically, every time the poor dog goes into heat, she's breeding them. At least she's not asking obscene amounts of money for them, she was selling them for $5 each, so obviously she's not making any money on them. I don't know if she's breeding them on purpose or is just plain stupid and doesn't have them fixed and doesn't try to keep them apart.

[Spudnik]

$5?! Or was that a typo?

[RavenRose]

Nope, no typo

[Shrelana]

OK, I was wrong on Casper's weight....but she still pulled me 6 feet off the loveseat, and across the living room in a rousing game of tug-o-war! :D. I now have a bruised tail bone to go along with my strained knee muscles (reason for sitting while playing with her) :p.

[KellyP]

I just wanted to point out that buying from a reputable breeder doesn't necessarily mean that your dog won't have problems. Yes it may lessen the chance, but the risk is still there. I bought my german shepherd from a very reliable breeder that tested their animals. She ended up having hip displacia, despite the fact that her parents never displayed signs and passed the tests for it.

[Shrelana]

but the point remains that buying from a backyard breeder INCREASES (sorry, don't know how to bold, or I would do that instead) the possibility of hip displacia and other genetic problems.

[Human Slave]

That's true. That's another reason why I like adopting from rescues. If the dog is a few years old most health problems would already be discovered lessening the chances of any surprises.

[Shrelana]

ahhhh...gotta bump it up so newbies will see it! Thanks everyone for responding to this like you have :)

[K9BOB]

My question is why did you buy a dog from a breeder without reviewing the health history of the dogs parents,grandparents,ect.. regardless of where you acquire a dog from ,pet shop,breeder, or even rescue if you are not educated in the genetic health issues that particular breed or dog is prone to you can be in for dissapointment. That is why regardless of what source you get your dog from you take certain risks when not knowing the health history of the dog,especially if the dog is used for working or performance venues.. A reputable breeder will have had Xrays performed on both parents, and that the hips were average or above before even considering to breed. The bad thing is that young pups may not show obvious smptoms of severe Hd.


A lesson painfully learned, and also what about the pain and discomfort that the dog will go thru which can be reduced with proper management and treatment...

good luck, I feel you situation, have been there many times...

k9Bob

[K9BOB]

As far as breeding not even the AKC is something of a final authority on responsible breeding.. The Akc is simply no more than a registry... For example you would have folks with the opinion that if (FOR EXAMPLE)
It would be great breeding material to breed show or agility champion Border Collies cause what more could a person ask for.. Ask anyone who understands what a Border Collie is and what it was breed for and they will tell you how that mind set basterdizes the breed.. A well breed Border collie as a PRIMARY reflection of it's contibution to the breed is to be a good or above average herding dog, not a conformation/show champion or champion freesby or agility dog.
Proper temperment and genetic ability of a Boder collie is to have self restraint and calmness to move livestock and the hyperness you see or hear about in a BC is not what was intended or needed in a premier herding dog.
So be careful with looking up to organizations when considering responsible breeding philosiphies... just something to ponder on..
I could provide many other examples of other breeds with simialar issues but the point I am attempting to make is that be careful and educate yourself by taking anything you hear with a grain of salt when it comes to breeding...
K9Bob

[maryjane238]

K9bob - Exactly!!

[K9BOB]

Also reputable breeders or anyone knowledgable will explain to you the value of HD testing and that it is not entirely preventable but when responsible breeders have there dogs xrayed and use the suggested breeding guidleines they greatly reduce the probability of your dog developing severe HD.
Also it is not a matter of someone "saying" the dog or parents does not have HD. The xrays and test reports should be made available for your inspection and a reputable breeder will submit the results to the OFA data base to which you can also view the records on line.... Also be advised that breeders/folks who's dogs test out that are below average or severe will rarely allow/submit the results (which you have to pay for) to be put into the OFA data base for someones review as it is seen as a poor reflection of the breeder/kennel.. happens everyday

Dogs IMHO regardless of where they where obtained that have a high breed average of being prone to HD should be xrayed. I feel this should be done to insure that the dog is not being subjected to undue pain, which can be an issue from anything from performance to temperment.

good luck

k9Bob

[K9BOB]

I would also have to disagree with the concept that rescue dogs have less chance of health issues especially HD.. these tests are not cheap and many times a dog,especially a young dog with excellent muscle mass/condition will mask the symptoms.. I have worked in shelters (know many folks who adopted dogs with unknown health issues,especially Hd) and spend alot of time educating rescue folks on this issue... How many rescues do you think perform thyroid,HD and CEA tests on there dogs?
again you have to understand the issues and rely on your particular standards to guard you..

k9Bob

[Shrelana]

They bought Casper upon seeing the condition the puppies were in, then turned the breeder in to the local humane society. My parents are in the court process of pressing charges for animal cruelty/neglect. They got her because they wanted to give one puppy a good home out of the mess. All the puppies as well as the parents were skin and bones, and when my mom found the ad online it apparently said something about the puppies being show quality.
From here on out, my dad said they will get shelter dogs.

[K9BOB]

I am not sure what lesson you have learned from your experience,but if there was a reason to buy a purebred from a breeder ,you certainly connected with a un-reputable breeder it sounds like..... And hopefully you will consider doing alot of research on the rescue you deal with (because there are bad rescues also) as far as any temperment tests or health screenings performed on the dog you acquire.... Also it might be important that you find a rescue dog with some historic background in the area of temperment,abuse, or genetic health issues..

good luck!!! and please keep us informed as to that breeder!
k9Bob

[Shrelana]

I honestly have posted all my folks will tell me about it....sorry. That's one problem with moving away from home (in my family): family business is not my business because I've separated myself from the family. And I had already decided to research any place I was going to get ANY pet, but thank you for the advice anyway :)

[kayloveskyle]

omg...thats so horrible..i want to cry...still a young adorable puppy...because of some idiots that dont know what they are doing....omg...im so sorry :(

[Shrelana]

The point of this thread at this point is to try to show ppl why you research the breeder, and why you shouldn't breed if ur not gonna make sure ur dogs are medically sound, and are being bred for the right reasons. Granted, this is no guarantee that ur dog won't have problems, but it is one preventative measure....
Like I said earlier, we will get shelter dogs from now on :) and casper will be loved for as long as we have her...

[lneill84]

Its even more than researching breeders. The AKC has a list of breeders of every type of registered dogs on their website. You can "assume" that these breeders are more reputable than others that aren't registered. When my mom was trying to find a tri color female corgi puppy, it took 2 years. I started by calling the breeder that we got my corgi from, even though she only breeds red and white. She was able to point me to another breeder however, the bred tri's, but didn't have a litter expected, and she pointed me to someone else. Always be wary of a breeder that, even when they don't have a litter, can't reccommend another breeder to you. The best breeders have the breed standard in mind at all times, and look out for each other. There also is a huge difference between working and show dogs. Many breeders of working/herding/ dogs also show their dogs in agility, tracking, hunting trials. My corgi is a strictly show dog, he comes from working/show stock, but he himself did not ever herd. My mom's girl however, both her parents were working and show dogs, more so working than show, while the grandparents were champions. She is much more hyper and shows more of the herd instinct than my dog. Research research research, and more research, not just about the dog, but including breeders.

[Shrelana]

This breeder WAS registered with AKC, my folks called her in, she is not any more...

[K9BOB]

I have dealt wither several AKC listed breeders who are not in my opinion as reputable as one would expect..but I am sure that is far and few inbetween...good advice on focusing on your education and research and always be skepticle.. As a matter of fact to illustrate this concept... I always thought I was a extremly reputable breeder in the beginning but later learned through further education that just maybe I was not so reputable, especially recommending breeding working and herding dogs without proven abilities as to what those breeds were breed for by the founders/standards, which was not solely for agility,conformation, or show..

Also I seee all the time on AKC listed breeding web sites where a breeder makes a statement that since HD or other health cannot be totally eridicated they do not feel it neccessary to put time,money,or effort into all of the tests... Also I find in unethical in which AKC breeders (as well as others) boast of gurantees...... How can you guarantee a living everchanging creature? You can certainly have a replacement contract, but I think the way some folks advertise this is misleading and sometimes fraudulant..
just my 1.5 cents worth.
k9Bob

k9Bob

[tigereize]

what can you do to prevent yourself from getting a dog from a byb?

[Canni]

For purebreds- Go to a breeder who is active in the community (showing/agility etc), who tests all of their dogs for common problems (hip, elbow, eye tests) and who shows you their certificates for these tests, who offers a 2 year gaurantee against genetic diseases (at least offer you money back.. I don't like the idea of exchanging a pet either!) they should be a member of their breed club.. and be actively promoting to breed to improve the breed.

A good breeder will ask you questions (LOTS!). They care about every one of there pups not just the money.. .ask to talk to some people who have bought a dog off them. Go to dog shows.. talk to lots of breeders and you will soon be able to pick out which one is good.

[IceyBlueSibes]

Responsible breeders only breed once, MAYBE twice a year. They only breed dogs that have been titled, whether it be conformation, or working. They breed dogs that will BETTER the breed. RB's will do the required testing to ensure a healthy litter. They will test hips, elbows, eyes, etc. Anything that their breed in particular is susceptible to, they will take any measure to find out if their dog/bitch has the potential of passing that gene on. They will not breed a dog under the age or 2 or 3 years. They will screen homes WAY in advanced, before the puppies are even born. All of them have contracts, to ensure the puppy is well taken care of, and if the puppy is unable to be taken care of properly... the breeder will take the puppy back, no questions asked. Your RB's will ask ALOT, and I mean, ALOT of questions towards a potential puppy buyer.

BYB's are either in it for the money, or are in it because "they want to have a puppy from their dog" or "they want them to atleast have one litter" etc. A non legitimate reason. A lot of chi/poodle/pom breeders will advertise "tea cups". These are BYB's because there is NO SUCH THING as a "tea cup" poodle/chi/ or pom. It is just a dog that is much tinier than usual and has a higher risk for health problems. And breeds such as the doberman, and APBT... BYB's will try to sell people dogs that are supposedly "rare colors!". The white dobermans, or the blue pit's, they try to pass off as a "rare" and "unusual" color and get more money for them. There is no such thing as a RARE color. It does not make the dog more valuable. If it isn't common, and not in the standard, then it is often times a mutation. BYB's will also advertise their puppies as "BIG/HUGE HEADS, BIG BONED, GREAT GUARD DOGS". A lot of BYB's will post signs around a neighborhood, or in the newspaper... if you see these here. RUN! This is not a RB.

If you research enough and talk with breeders who are dedicated to their breed, and have been into their breed for a LONG time, and figure out the differences between a BYB and RB, it will become very obvious who is a BYB and who is a responsible breeder.

[tigereize]

so what is the best way of finding a breeder who is responsible? I always thought that the only way to get a dog was to go to a shelter, petstore, or look in the paper.

[K9BOB]

try this web site for starters

www.darnfar.com
k9Bob

[tigereize]

thanks k9Bob

[CandyLoo]

Responsible breeders only breed once, MAYBE twice a year. They only breed dogs that have been titled, whether it be conformation, or working. They breed dogs that will BETTER the breed. RB's will do the required testing to ensure a healthy litter. They will test hips, elbows, eyes, etc. Anything that their breed in particular is susceptible to, they will take any measure to find out if their dog/bitch has the potential of passing that gene on. They will not breed a dog under the age or 2 or 3 years. They will screen homes WAY in advanced, before the puppies are even born. All of them have contracts, to ensure the puppy is well taken care of, and if the puppy is unable to be taken care of properly... the breeder will take the puppy back, no questions asked. Your RB's will ask ALOT, and I mean, ALOT of questions towards a potential puppy buyer.
........If you research enough and talk with breeders who are dedicated to their breed, and have been into their breed for a LONG time, and figure out the differences between a BYB and RB, it will become very obvious who is a BYB and who is a responsible breeder.
OK..so we're all acquainted with reasons not to shop for BYBs, pet stores, or "on the wrong side of town."
Hmmm...don't want to start a Big Whoop here, but here are some facts. For many decades I've had many pets...rescues, giveaways, throwaways and the reputably breed pure from RBs. Most lived into seniorhood, but none lived without acquiring some degree of disease and disability. All went on to Rainbow Bridge whether it was their time or not. What I am saying....there are no guarantees, papers or not.
My rescues outlived my purebreds.

Supposing everyone buys at Neiman Marcus (the RBs) where they only sell papered, 100% healthy pets from the RB who only allows his canines to breed 1-2/yr. That's 4-9 in a litter. That's roughly 8-18/yr. What happens to the "imperfect" merchandise that's returned. Is it kept, sold to a "buyer beware" or taken to a shelter? Surely the RBs can't take them all back.

Just my opinion, but the fact that breeding goes on is troubling. It's troubling when 6-8 million pets enter shelters every year. 30-38% of those are purebreds.
3-4 million of those are euthanized per year. The grand total of pets euthanized since Oct. 27, 2001 is 14,507,567, more than twice the number of Jews who died in Germany's gas chambers in World WarII.

[K9BOB]

I am not real sure/clear what you are saying here.

1.Are you saying that breeding should stop altogether?
and if not under what conditions should one follow if they were to breed?
2. are you saying that rescue sourced dogs are generally as healthy both mentally and physically as well bred/socialized dogs?

I am really interested in your view points as both a breeder/trainer and having founded several rescues,performs private rescue operations, and has several close friends who have run county shelters for over 10 years, and who has has worked in kill shelters.

question..

Do you believe that dogs that were bred for working venues (hunting,herding,protection ect, should be bred if they (both male/female) have not had proper health checks and do not exhibit average or above average abilities to working standard ?

Do you feel that dogs that only have agility or show titles should be bred (these types of titles justify good reason for breeding stock)?

Do you think that people should be screened by qualified personnel before being allowed to have/own/acquire a dog?

Do you believe that people should be required to have a certain level of k9 education and training certification before being allowed to own a dog?

Do you believe that all dogs regardless of where the dog was required should have health screenings for the major health issues to which that particular breed is most prone to genetically? For example if you acquire a dog which has a high rate of Hip displasia would you recommend the dog be xrayed,especially if it were going to be subjected to a average or higher amount of physical exertion?

Do you feel that there are folks with dogs that should not have them for any reason?

Do you feel that there are both breeders and rescue organizations/people who turn dogs over to others do so when the reciepient has little or no screening for being a proper placement?

I always enjoy these types of debates as we can always learn something new or interesting.

good day!

k9Bob

[Punkygirl0101]

What breed do you breed k9bob?

[K9BOB]

I breed Border Collies Occasionally---
You can see them on my web site www.darnfar.com

;')
K9Bob

[Canni]

To find a good breeder generally you should go to dog shows and talk to multiple breeders.. or call the breed club you are interested in as they all have a set of rules their breeders have to follow. Of course bad breeders can slip through so you must thoroughly research any breeder you plan on buying a pup from.

Most purebreds do have health problems.. the amount of careless breeding that has gone on is the cause of this.. sure a shelter dog is probably going to be healthier as it has genetics on its side. But a responsible breeder should do all the can do minimize health problems.. one breeder I know would never let any dogs she has bred end up in a shelter.. if a dog is not healthy/up to standard she keeps it or sells it on a special contract. Sure sometimes she can have up to 15+ dogs (she only has a few litters a year) but she sees it as her duty as a good breeder to take back any dog that an owner can't keep for whatever reason and I wish more breeders were like that. The RBs certainly aren't the problem for shelters.. the problems are those breeding fad breeds.. designer dogs, petshops (who sell undesexed pups) and backyard breeders... these are the animals that take up the majority of my shelter.

[Jimmyness]

My father, who was a very irresposible backyard breeder bred our dog twice and the vet said if she was to fall pregnant one more time she would die. And one of the puppys she had that we kept had a skin condition that to this day, after hundreds of dollars in vet bills, still hasnt been fixed.

[tigereize]

canni, what kind of thorough research should one do?

and candyloo, is that your arguement to get people to get rescue dogs? Yes, I know that rescued dogs need homes too, but as far as I see it, since puppies are living creatures too, they need a home as much as the rescues do. For example, I could buy a puppy, and that would be one more dog that would have a forever home, and won't end up in the hands of a person who will take it to the pound later on in life. I also see it a s a plus that i know the dog has a good temperment, I know it's parents and background, and that it wasn't abused and may have behavioral problems. Hey to each their own... stop trying to save the world by trying to force your opinions on others... in the end, we will make our own decisions. No matter what, breeding will go on. Theres nothing you can do about it, so why work yourself up?

[K9BOB]

some good stuff

Introduction
There are lots of really hard-working conscientious, very caring people doing rescue all over America. I feel very strongly about rescue, so it's difficult for me to see situations that reflect badly on the rescue world. Unfortunately, though, these situations do exist.

Rescue in some areas and in some breeds has a bad reputation. You'd think that saving lives would be looked on favorably, but because rescue means many things to many people, this is not always true. In some of these instances, the attitude is understandable — there are many people who are doing rescue who really should leave it to someone else.

The following categories of “rescuers” should be viewed with concern. If you are looking for a rescue dog (or considering joining the ranks of rescue), these are the people and circumstances to avoid.


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Collectors
These people will spend a lot of time talking about how great they are. They rescue everything — any breed, any mixed breed, cats, wild animals. They have a grand collection of animals living at their places. They don't spay or neuter because they don't have the time or money; anything adopted from them is free to reproduce and cause rescue problems in future generations.

Collectors don't provide veterinary care because they lack time and money. Many animals that come from collectors have health problems that accumulate high medical costs and often result in death of the animal and financial and emotional trauma to the adopter.

Collectors spend all their time feeding and cleaning after their charges, so they don't know anything about the animals' individual personalities; they can't tell adopters what to expect from the animal, so the adoptions often fail and the animal is returned.

Although they have problems with disease, collectors do not euthanize sick or aggressive animals because they “love animals too much.” Thus they place sick animals that run up medical bills for the adopter or aggressive animals that are unsafe around humans. If an aggressive or inappropriately-placed animal injures someone, rescue, the breed, and dogs usually suffer the consequences.


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Breeders
Unfortunately, some people take purebred dogs in “rescue” to breed them and sell the puppies. They don't care about the health, temperament, or quality of the dogs, just their reproductive status. Some of these “rescuers” give the dog to a friend or relative for breeding.

If they do find homes for the dogs, they don't sterilize before placing and they don't screen adopters to restrict breeding potential.

Mixed breeds are not safe from these people. There is someone in my area who specializes in small mixed breeds. She sells Yorki-poos, Peke-a-poos, schnoodles — you get the idea. It doesn't matter what the dog's actual background is; if the pups can be passed off as something, they will be.


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Bleeding hearts
This sounds funny coming from me because many people think I am a bleeding heart myself. I will be the first to admit that I don't believe in taking another creature's life lightly, but euthanasia is a necessary part of rescue. If you can't handle it, stay out of rescue.

Euthanasia is a painful process for me. I still feel the same pain and agony and helplessness for Nicky, the first dog I had to kill. It never goes away; it never gets easier.

The “easiest” decisions to euthanize are for the sick animals, the ones in pain. I know I am releasing them to a God who will see they are better cared for than they were on earth, but I am always sad that I didn't find them earlier, when help might have made a difference.

Next are the vicious animals. Although there is the pain of taking a life away, I know I am saving the dog from hurting a human, maybe seriously. I also consider the possibility of such a dog dying a terrifying death instead of a peaceful one with me. There is a sadness with these dogs, too; maybes if we found it early enough we could have changed the temperament or kept the animal from living a life that made it vicious.

We also make the decision to euthanize if a dog is unplaceable because of age or behavior or is a Malamute-wolf hybrid.

It is almost impossible to place a dog that is 10 or 12 years old. It is difficult to imagine someone dumping a dog after all those years together, but they do. If age alone is the reason for death, it makes me angry.

Some dogs are unplaceable. They aren't vicious or unhealthy, and they aren't old. They are mental misfits — unbelievable nervous, uncomfortable inside or out, or won't stay in a fence, any fence. They will injure themselves trying to escape. They never relax, never seem happy or content. They are a struggle to deal with and impossible to place.

The hybrids are tough. I tend to get along with these creatures and I truly appreciate the pieces of them that are wild. However, for the preservation of my breed, Malamute-wolf-hybrids in rescue should be euthanized. Hybrids are poor pets for virtually all pet owners, and they give the dog breed part of their heritage a bad name when they are misidentified as a purebred on purpose or out of ignorance.

The most difficult animal to euthanize is the one you spend time, money, and energy on, the one you grow to appreciate and love, the one who commits an unforgivable act of aggression. The pain is dreadful and long-lasting.

Euthanasia is ugly, painful, emotionally stressful, a moral struggle, and very necessary. If you can't do it, stay out of rescue.


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Rescuer categories
There are lots of really hard-working conscientious, very caring people doing rescue all over America. I feel very strongly about rescue, so it's difficult for me to see situations that reflect badly on the rescue world. Unfortunately, though, these situations do exist.

Rescue in some areas and in some breeds has a bad reputation. You'd think that saving lives would be looked on favorably, but because rescue means many things to many people, this is not always true. In some of these instances, the attitude is understandable — there are many people who are doing rescue who really should leave it to someone else.

Resuming with the list, the following categories of “rescuers” should be viewed with concern. If you are looking for a rescue dog (or considering joining the ranks of rescue), these are the people and circumstances to avoid.


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Idiots
This is pretty blunt but very accurate. There are people doing rescue who are stupid or uninformed. Or both. They have good hearts, but they go willy-nilly through the world placing animals and spouting words of “wisdom” that are totally incorrect. At best, they give false information that will be taken as gospel and cause minor troubles. At worst, they cause a dog to be euthanized or a human to be injured.


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Liars
Again, blunt and accurate. We in rescue know people will tell us anything to get us to take their animal. We have learned to evaluate animals ourselves and not take the word of the owner as gospel. In all fairness, some people can't be objective about their animal. But some people just lie.

If you are doing rescue and you lie, you are doing more harm than good. People need to know the truth about an animal, its past, its health, its capabilities, and its limitations to the best of your knowledge. Truth about the animal can make the adjustment period easier and sometimes make the difference between an animal that gets to stay in a home and one that gets returned or euthanized.


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Money makers
This one fascinates me. There are people who use rescue dogs as a means of making money. They don't breed them, but they use them to get donations. They do a lot of advertising and use the media to play up the really sad cases and make a good deal of money through donations. There are also people who get dog food donated and use it to feed their own dogs. Some of these people do a good job with their rescue dogs, and some don't. But either way, they are unethically taking money for themselves that was given to help the dogs.


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One-dog rescuers
This is odd and not too common. There are people who say they do rescue, take one animal into their home, and then for the next six or seven years, they say they are full and can't take any more dogs. Sometimes a breed club pays for the care of the dog; if this is the case, the club is paying for the “rescuer” to own a pet.

Even if the person takes financial responsibility for the dog, he is keeping other needy animals from getting into rescue because he is listed as the rescue contact for the area. Some people just like to tell others they do rescue because they like the sound of the words and idea.


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Power-mongers
There are people who do rescue by themselves, do a good job, and are a real asset to their communities. There are also people who draw all the attention they can to themselves, not for money, but for the ability to control. This is not always bad. Rescue needs the outgoing person who draws a lot of publicity. Otherwise, how could anyone know we are here?

[K9BOB]

part 2

But if you do this for any reason other than to help the animals, you are doing more harm than good. If you use your position to control finances, placement of animals, publicity, or anything else without making the animal the top priority, you are not needed in rescue.


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Emotional cripples
There are people doing rescue who get something crucial from the animals that they aren't getting from their own animals or from the people in their lives. I have always said that we get more from rescue dogs than we give. They teach so much about dog behavior, breed specifics, resilience, stamina, the ability to love and keep loving, and the ability to heal and love again.

I never could have owned 70-plus Malamutes in seven years and learned from them all that I have from the same number of rescue dogs. But if you put your emotions, your feelings first and the welfare of the animals second, you are not doing what' best for the animals.

Vets love the emotional cripples, for they sometimes turn their charges into hypochondriacs. Along with running to the clinic at the drop of a hat, they tend to keep dogs far too long. If the dogs are kept in kennels, they can lose their housetraining, socialization, and obedience training, situations that make it more difficult to find them a home.


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Doing a good rescue job
There are many things necessary for doing a good job in rescue. You need:

Space for the dogs
Money to care for them
Time to clean, train, socialize, groom, test, and feed
A knowledge of your breed
Lots of love and patience
A sense of humor

[CandyLoo]

I am not real sure/clear what you are saying here.

1.Are you saying that breeding should stop altogether?
and if not under what conditions should one follow if they were to breed?
2. are you saying that rescue sourced dogs are generally as healthy both mentally and physically as well bred/socialized dogs?

I am really interested in your view points as both a breeder/trainer and having founded several rescues,performs private rescue operations, and has several close friends who have run county shelters for over 10 years, and who has has worked in kill shelters.

question..

Do you believe that dogs that were bred for working venues (hunting,herding,protection ect, should be bred if they (both male/female) have not had proper health checks and do not exhibit average or above average abilities to working standard ?

Do you feel that dogs that only have agility or show titles should be bred (these types of titles justify good reason for breeding stock)?

Do you think that people should be screened by qualified personnel before being allowed to have/own/acquire a dog?

Do you believe that people should be required to have a certain level of k9 education and training certification before being allowed to own a dog?

Do you believe that all dogs regardless of where the dog was required should have health screenings for the major health issues to which that particular breed is most prone to genetically? For example if you acquire a dog which has a high rate of Hip displasia would you recommend the dog be xrayed,especially if it were going to be subjected to a average or higher amount of physical exertion?

Do you feel that there are folks with dogs that should not have them for any reason?

Do you feel that there are both breeders and rescue organizations/people who turn dogs over to others do so when the reciepient has little or no screening for being a proper placement?

I always enjoy these types of debates as we can always learn something new or interesting.

good day!k9Bob

WOW! So many questions I don't know how to answer and I appreciate you're taking the time to nudge my right brain into more thought about this. My motive is not to pass judgement on those who are upfront and are are honestly making an effort to benefit the voiceless members of our communities. I am an "independent" promoter of education for spay & neuter, shelter pets, and support legislation to ban BSL and end shelter euthanasia, as fantastic as that may sound. I don't expect that to happen in my lifetime. Hence, the statistics on shelter euthanasia.I also do pet grief counseling and photograph shelter pets and write their bios. As a nurse, I take care of old folks on the weekends.
I am not against those wanting to adopt from RBs for my family has always had a PB weenie dog (from close friends who are RBs) underfoot at all times.
Since I'm getting to be an old geezer though, my next purebreds will probably be seniors through my association with Almost Home Dachshund and Hearts United for Animals. I DO NOT want my pets to outlive me. I only have the financial means to responsibly care for no more than 3 to 4 animals. Right now, I have a special needs, blind rat terrier, whose BYB was going to have her euthanized, and 2 cats, I nabbed off the streets. My only point here given my personal history and experience with my pets is that there are no guarantees about health or long lives for they all eventually devloped something and they all passed away. God forbid and sadly, 2 to freak accidents. Many people who "think" they're getting the guarantee of a 100% healthy pet have unrealistic ideas about this sort of thing especially when their pets get sick or develop disability.

I do wish more folks would give their right brains a chance to think this through...their motives for wanting a pet...research the breeds or try to get as much history about the potential pet...calculate the financial resources required....and, yes, visit the shelters and pounds, talk to those people. And for goodness sakes, get those babies sterilized.

Thank you, K9BOB and Canni and all the concerned people here who contribute to the well-being of pets and are willing to patiently and thoughtfully educate those of us who are always in need of more.

[Shrelana]

I think this thread may go a ways in stopping those BYB's that see it....That's actually why I posted it, I wanted to try to get something out there for ppl to see, and I realize, not many ppl will see it, but maybe it will make a difference for those that DO see it. Thanks everyone for posting :)

[Canni]

Tigereize- Yes I understand your point.. some people are not suited to taking a rescue dog and I don't think they should be made to feel guilty about this. Especially first time dog owners need something a little more predictable and easier to handle.. and much better for them to get a first dog like this with the aid of a good breeder who can help them throughout the dogs life than to take on a shelter dog and end up bringing it back to the shelter because of problems that they can't quite handle. You may also be interested in showing which you cannot do with most shelter dogs.

Research your breed you are interested in..thoroughly.. know all its health problems (there will be some) your good breeder should test for all these problems and show you the certificates for those tests. By talking to these people you should be able to see that they are breeding to better the breed.. not for money or any other purpose. Dog shows are quite useful as you can talk to many breeders in one area and compare their dogs to each other.. and their attitudes to their dogs and breeding :) A breeder should always offer to support you and your pup throughout its life.. they should always be contactable by phone to you.. so you want a breeder who you get along with. When you buy a purebred pup the breeder should give you an honest opinion on the pup (especially if you are interested in showing) telling you why it is 'pet quality' or what faults it has etc.

Also be aware that after all this research and careful choosing.. you still can end up with a dog with health problems (my friend ended up with a dog with epilepsy). So whether PB or rescue you can end up with hefty vet bills.

BTW.. my parents made the mistake of buying a dog from a BYB 15 years ago...I love him very much but he's had chronic ear infections, skin problems, and aggression. What we saved from buying a dog from our neighbours breeding.. we've spent many times over the years on his problems.

[K9BOB]

Another aspect that is rarely discussed (too politically hot) is the HUMANS who get a dog from a reputable breeder or reputable rescue operation and then turn the dog over to someone else who has not been screened to insure that the placement was good for the dog, this happens all the time...
k9Bob

[Shrelana]

hmmm.... never thought of that....

[Spudnik]

Another aspect that is rarely discussed (too politically hot) is the HUMANS who get a dog from a reputable breeder or reputable rescue operation and then turn the dog over to someone else who has not been screened to insure that the placement was good for the dog, this happens all the time...
k9Bob

Someone posted boasting about doing EXACTLY that to a rescue last year. :mad: