Please Help...Dental Advice Needed

[MalteseGurl]

I'm sorry to say I neglected my dogs dental health, but I am now trying to get on the right foot. My 4 1/2 maltese really needs dental work done, which will probably mean most of her teeth will need to come out. I understand dental health is important to overall health and I had every intention of having the surgery done on her. However recently one of my mother's friends had this type of surgery done on her dog and he died on the operating table. I know there are always risks when it comes to anthesia (sp) but is this common? I'm actually considering just leaving her teeth alone, because now I'm too scared to make the appointment for the surgery. If someone out there is knowledge in this department can you please give me some information on this topic. I want to do whats best for my dogs.

[Canni]

Surgery is very safe now.. there is always risks involved though so its good you are aware of it. At 4 and a half your dog is still fairly young and shouldn't have much of an issue. Your vet should use isoflurane gas to put her under which is very safe with most of it being expelled by breathing. Also whilst more expensive consider getting a blood test before surgery as this will point out any problems that vets may have to be aware of when performing the surgery or may even delay the surgery if something is abnormal in the blood work.

In my opinion the risks of surgery are much less than the risks of leaving her teeth in such a bad stage they can damage her organs and ultimately can kill her.

[MalteseGurl]

thank you...so if I have the blood work done, which I was planning on doing, everything should be fine? Sorry if I sound ingornant (sp) but I just want to make sure this is the right thing to do.

[lneill84]

There is always a risk during surgery, regardless of pre-blood work up or not. Make sure the vet is experienced, and that you understand exactly what is happening. Personally, at age 4 1/2, a dog shouldn't have to have all its teeth removed, as you stated, unless they have truely terrible genetics and fed a crap diet.

[MalteseGurl]

I know at 4 1/2 a dog shouldn't need to have teeth removed. She wasn't isn't on a "crap" diet, she's on Candiea. Genetics however are another thing. There are no maltese "breeders" here, hardly any reputable breeders for that matter, so yes she did come from a pet store, where most people have to get them from here. And no I don't like the fact that I got her from a pet store nor would I have ever supported it if I known then what I know now about byb and petstores.

[lneill84]

Then its something that you need to recognize and make sure that you keep up with her vet checks, shots, etc. Removing many teeth at this "young" age, depending on the teeth involved, can make eating and chewing very difficult for her. What teeth are they removing?

[MalteseGurl]

She is up to date on all of her vacc's and all my dogs go into the vet for a once a year checkup. They are going to remove most of her teeth. They couldn't tell me for sure which ones because they couldn't get a good look, she hates her mouth handled, hence the reason why I didn't brush. I do know that her canines will be left but as for what else I don't know. They did say there were at least six for sure that had to come out. The ones in the back - they molars and premolars? maybe

[FemaleCheetah]

Thats pretty sad that you waited until she was 4 1/2 yrs old to take care of her teeth, her mouth must be VERY sore.

[lneill84]

She's going to have a difficult life ahead of her now, if they are truely removing that many teeth. Dog's teeth perform a variety of functions. She's 4 1/2 and is going to have to have a difficult time eating and getting nutrition. I don't believe for a second that there is no reputable maltese breeders in Canada. If you truely were concerned, have one shipped from the States, not run out on a whim to a pet store and buy one. My dog hates having his nails clipped-but guess what, I still clip them every week without fail because its required as an owner. Just because she hated to have her teeth brushed or mouth handled is no excuse to not do so.

[TheSlimShady]

The fact that a 4 1/2yrold needs at least 6 teeth removed is weird. But I wouldn't say it's the owners fault for "neglect" unless these teeth got broken from her being a chewer or just having weak jaw muscles and you ignored it. If her breath has been smelling for a while, then yeah it's neglect and most likely what happened was that they got broken or cracked.

The average dog owner feeds a worse food than this and the average dog still has all their teeth by the age of 10. Not many people DO brush their dog's teeth.. So that's not it. Especially when you start thinking about all the wild animals with perfect teeth and nobody to "brush" them.

I don't believe in the genetic blame either. I have a 5 yearold petshop/puppyfarm dog. His teeth are perfect and still puppy sharp; but he has also been fed raw since 6 weeks old.

My suggestion is to take your dog to a dog dentist because they specialize in these things. Having the regular vet do this is like going to your physician for a tooth extraction.

As for the anestiesa risks. Best you can do is to have all the blood work done to make sure everything is normal. And don't go to your mother's friend's vet who lost her dog. I wonder how experienced that guy was at extractions. One of the problems with teeth extraction is while they're pulling and cutting the tooth out, that harmful bacteria from the tooth rotting is everywhere. If it gets back in the blood.. it can be pretty toxic. Another reason you'd want an expert in this or if you *have* to go to a regular vet, ask around and get some recommendations.

By the way, is your dog spayed? If so, then you already know there's a good chance the anesteisa alone won't kill her.

[TheSlimShady]

I don't know what part of Canada you're from but there's one in Ontario..
http://www.toothvet.ca/

[MalteseGurl]

I don't like people suggesting I neglect my pets, and yes I know I should have done more about her teeth, but at least give me credit in trying to get on the right track. I have been brushing my other dog's teeth since I've had them here, just Tia won't let me do hers not that it would do any good (I will be cleaning them regualry after the surgey though)

The truth is, I was away at university for the first three years we had them and I have only been able to have them with me since last summer. I don't know why her teeth are so bad, her half sister which I also have has perfect teeth and the vet told me that teeth this bad was common in the small toy breeds. I don't know why. She is NOT a chewer, never was, and none of her teeth are broken are chipped as far as I and the vet can tell.

Also there isn't a vet around here that specializes in dental work so a vet is the only option. She def. won't be going to the vet my mother's friend went to, she is at the other end of the province. I have made an appointment for her on Thursday, she will be going to see the vet I have been seeing since I have had them here. All three of my dogs are spayed and there wasn't any problems then, thank god, so maybe it won't be so bad, I'm just a nervous wreck.

[head]

there are many veterinarians who are not dental specialists such as dr. sharon french at the VEC in Toronto who are still board certified and recognized by the AAHA, AVDS (the dental society which helps regulate companion animal dentistry), CVO, OVMA and every other veterinary liscensing organization. This does not mean that they are not qualified to perform dentistries however there are certain proceedures (such as removal of osteosarcomas around the jaw line) that they would feel more comfortable referring. dental disease can affect any animal at any age and breed, age, and genetics are things that are considered when assessing a patient in addition to oral care done at home as well as nutrition. smaller breeds of dogs due to the formation of their jaw are more predisposed to undershot, retained deciduous teeth, rotated teeth and crowding of teeth which can cause periodontal disease earlier than in other patients. it is a fact in the industry for those that know of it. most of the time an estimate is based on visualization of the gum/calculus on initial exam but from experience, you can never do a full ( and proper) dental exam on a patient until you have then under sedation.

in my practice,all patients that are booked for dentistries (aside from having a preoperative exam) have preoperative blood work which include a full cbc and clinical chemistry pannal (geriatric profile which includes thyroid profile for geriatric or suspected patients). providing bloodwork proves insignificant the animal is then placed on antibiotics two days prior to their dental surgery appointment. when under anesthetic (and placed on several types of monitors and iv fluids). a first stage examination is done, scaling is done using an ultrasonic scaler to remove calculus and tartar on the teeth. the gums are probed to determine gum recession (if any), and pocket depth. *for more information reguarding this pm me*. after examination once gross calculus is removed, it is then decided by the attending veterinarian if any extractions are needed and how many. many vets are getting more indepth with nerve blocks which temporarily localize any pain sensation from that particular root. the tooth is then removed and the site is cleaned and sutured closed. after all this the dog is recovered and has a much brighter smile to show for it. most dogs will continue on antibiotics following the dental and recheck appointments are designated especially for those with extractions.

yes following the extractions a dog/cat will be more sensitive for the first few days following however once the incision sites have healed and the gum tissue returns to normal, many animals are eating dry kibble within 3-5 days following dentistry. i myself have a cat who i adopted late in age who i extracted 11 teeth on. although he is on a mainly wet food diet, he does have and eat the dry kibble offered.

teeth brushing may take a while for the animal to become accustomed too and there are stages to go about this to lessen the initial stress.

this is an opinion/facts/experience as a registered technician who has been performing dental scalings for years and have seen all types of dental disease and dental malformations in all ages/breeds of dogs.

[MalteseGurl]

head thank you for your relpy, it was exactly what I was looking for, from someone in the field with first hand knowledge on the procedure and what is to be expected. Understanding now what will happen in the o.r is a relief (better the devil you know then the one you don't). The vet also told me she would be able to eat kibble again no problem in a couple of days, but I had doubts, its nice to hear it from someone else as well.

I have asked them to do all blood work and testing necessary to make sure everything goes as smoothly as possible, but in your post you said preblood work, they're not doing tia's until I bring her in on thursday, is this normal?

Also do you think she will be able to be left alone on Friday? I think I can arrange to bring her to work with me. What do you think would be best? alone from 8:30-5:00 with the other two dogs or with me at work in a strange environment (I would bring her kennel)

Once again thank you for the informative post

[Canni]

The clinic I was at they do the prebloods the morning of the surgery..they had facilities to process it there though..but they also placed patients on antibiotics prior to that too. They got a seperate vet to come in to do dentals but really depends which clinic you go to. I have a maltese who my vet believes is more genetically prone to gum disease...as we have eliminated diet... what would help is after she recovers from surgery to feed her chicken wings or/and necks weekly as this will help with her teeth...and yes removing teeth should be much of an issue with feeding..she'll definitely be a whole lot more comfortable than she is now!

I'd prefer her with me to keep a close eye on her if it were me..

[MalteseGurl]

Thanks Canni, you have been very helpful. They never said anything about antibiotics before they surgery so now I'm worried. I'm going to talk it over with them when I drop her off tomorrow morning. As for feeding her chicken necks and wings I would love to but there is no way she'll eat it. She is the most picky eater I have ever seen. I have no idea what I'm going to feed her until her gums heal, the only can soft food she likes is tripe, would this be okay by its self for a few days? Either that or boiled chicken and brown rice? Also it's arranged for her to come into work with me on Friday so I will be able to keep a close eye on her.

I just have a horrible feeling about tomorrow. Do dogs often die from dental work or have other ill effects? Or am I just over reacting?

[lneill84]

Im not trying to scare you, or make you worry, but with any surgery involving sedation, there are always risks. Dental work is fairly common, it isn't a huge deal. Depending on the level of sedation, she'l probably be groggy for a couple of hours, and if you are concerned, the vet can certainly keep her a few hours and watch her. I would be wary if he didn't mention antibiotics to you, especially if she has a lot of teeth removed. One or two, I wouldn't worry about it as long as she isn't in the habit of eating gross stuff (like garbage regularly :)), but she should be on some sort of antibiotic if many teeth are being removed. This is my personal opinion, but your vet shouldn't have waited until the day of to make you aware of any special nutritional requirements, antibiotics, care, etc. Getting blood taken the day of is fine as long as they have the facilities to process and check the blood there themselves.

[TheSlimShady]

Don't just feed her tripe by itself, even if it's something you normally feed her, by itself especially after a surgery could be too rich and make her sick.

Chicken wings, anything bone or kibble wouldn't work anyway. Dogs usually don't want to chew after having a few teeth removed, especially when they're in the back.

Feed canned food, ground raw "mixtures" or something like ground turkey or ground beef/hamburger. Or if you don't feed raw, boiling hamburger and rice would be fine. You can also add water to make it even softer and easier to eat.

If there's no infection in her mouth there's no reason to be on antibiotics before dental surgery. That's just an optional precaution thing that some vets do and some don't. If your vet didn't do it, they must not have seen any indication that she needed them. Usually dogs have a swollen face and can hardly eat and open their mouth when there's an infection.

You might be overreacting just a little. Where do you think the "horrible feeling" is coming from?

Did your vet make you feel uncomfortable about it? Was the appointment to rushed or anything? If your vet made you feel that way maybe you should cancel and get a new vet.. She needs the teeth removed but she won't die tomorrow if it's not done tomorrow.

If the thing about your mother's friend's dog dying is what's scaring you so much.. Remember you have a different vet and you're taking precautions with the blood work. Can you find out more details about that dog's surgery? Maybe bloodwork wasn't done or the dog was old or had other health problems. Or her dental problems were even more serious.

You know she shouldn't have any reaction to the anesteisa itself since she was spayed and came out of that fine. (gas anesteisa is the safest by the way..)

No, dieing from dental surgery is NOT a common thing. What's more common is dogs dying from dental problems that were left there and not taken care of. (like someone else already explained..the bactera getting into the organs),

If your dog is generally happy, healthy and active than she should be fine. :)

[lneill84]

If she is having the vast amount of teeth removed that you claim, then she needs to be on antibiotics, end of story. Its much easier to stop antibiotics when you are on them, rather than wait for an infection to start and then treat. The chance of infection is much much greater when you are having many teeth removed compared to one or two. Don't believe SlimShady, sorry, when he says she will be fine with anethesia because she was spayed and that was fine. Dogs have different reactions all the time, whether its anethesia, vaccines, even flea preventative etc. Most likely, she will be 100% fine. Extractions are pretty routine, especially with older dogs. Getting a pre workup done on blood is always good. If you are this concerned and your vet didnt address any of these issues with you, I would be wary. He should have made you aware of any post op treatments, reactions, etc., beforehand, rather than waiting until after shes done.

[maryjane238]

a little off topic but....what do you raw feeders think about feeding raw while sick or recovering from surgery? any concerns about the body trying to fight off bacteria from food at the same time as it is trying to heal itself? could this be too much even with antibiotics? never really thought about this until this thread

[TheSlimShady]

If she is having the vast amount of teeth removed that you claim, then she needs to be on antibiotics, end of story. [/qquote]

Not true. It's not set in stone anywhere that they "need" them because they're having teeth removed. Antibiotics prior to dental surgery vary between human dentists, dog dentists and vets so it doesn't even matter where you got your information from.

Afterwards it's usually a good idea... And not every vet does that either. It's a personal choice. With something like this, the best thing anyone can do is research it themselves as much as possible and even get a second vet's opinion. Not just asking a few people on Petshub. You can get more facts doing Google sesarches or posting on vet or health boards.



[quote]Its much easier to stop antibiotics when you are on them, rather than wait for an infection to start and then treat.

There's also the problem with using antibiotics as a precaution because you(or your dog) can become immune to them. It can be worse to be put on an antibiotic when you *do need them* and realize after taking them that they're not working because you're immune to them and the infection is 10x worse.

This dog has had teeth problems for how many years now? If there's no infection now, the vet probably figured there wouldn't be one within the next week and that's why the dog isn't on antibiotics now.:rolleyes:



[Don't believe SlimShady, sorry, when he says she will be fine with anethesia because she was spayed and that was fine. Dogs have different reactions all the time, whether its anethesia,

Actually, I never said it was guaranteed. I said it was more likely. Most dogs that die from the anesteisa alone die their first time going under.

[TheSlimShady]

a little off topic but....what do you raw feeders think about feeding raw while sick or recovering from surgery? any concerns about the body trying to fight off bacteria from food at the same time as it is trying to heal itself? could this be too much even with antibiotics? never really thought about this until this thread


The "bacteria" in raw food doesn't hurt dogs the way it hurts people. Their systems are different. People who feed raw continue feeding it even after surgery. (if you do a yahoo group search..there are quite a few raw feeding lists)
Personally, I'd be more concerned about killing their digestive and immune system by going from raw, healthy food to dead, proccessed crap that their bodies aren't made for. Raw has the right nutrients and enzymes to help them heal themselves. With kibble, they have to try and proccess and digest all that junk ontop of healing and detoxing their systems. Raw fed dogs usually recover from surgeries and snap out of anesteisa faster than kibble fed too.

[lneill84]

Dogs, exactly as humans, are much much more suspectible to infection when they have an open wound. Now, she is claiming that the dog will be having many teeth removed. So, lets say it has 5 teeth removed-that would make 5 wounds in its mouth. Thats 5 extra ways any bacteria can get into their bloodstream. Putting a dog on antibiotics for a few days isn't going to "wreck" their immunity, or do really much of anything. She seems exceedingly concerned about the procedure, and her vet isn't doing a very good job making her aware of the procedure

[MalteseGurl]

She will be having at least six teeth removed. One in front because there is two in the same spot, and molars in the back. If dogs have 42 teeth is six a lot?
Tia has had problems with her teeth ever since she was pup. During my first year of university so she was 2 she was brought to the vet for an ear infection and we talked to a vet then (the one where the dog died) and she told us there was nothing that could be done with her teeth they were so bad!!!!! (or it would have been taken care of then). I didn;'t believe her but there was no other vets in a 500kms radius so what could I do? When I got them down here with me and found a vet that I liked is when I found out she could have dental work done I had to save up for the procedure. So the day has arrived (tomorrow) that she will finally have the work she needs done.

As for the pre meds, I'm concerned, I would love to go on slimshady's words which seemed vaild (and I thank you for your input) but iniell has raised some valid points as well. Tomorrow when I drop her off I am dicussing this with the vet to see what reasoning there is not to have her on meds. If she sounds legit I will go ahead with the surgey, if not I will cancell it and look for another vet.

I think someone may have said to fed her wet can food for a couple of days, but she won't eat it. I swear she's the world's pickist eater, so will chicken and brown rice be okay? If not are there any other suggestions. She does like tripe which is soft but someone else said it would be too rich. Besides chicken she does like hamburger meat so I guess I could do a day or two of each.

[MalteseGurl]

ohh and slimshady thank you for telling me dying from this type of surgery is not common. I am still worried though after what happened to the other dog.

[lneill84]

Boiled chicken/beef and brown rice is a perfectly acceptable diet-its commonly given to dog's with an upset stomach and is easily eaten. 6 teeth isn't a lot, but when you take in account her young age, it is a lot-does that make any sense lol? You would have to assume that she is going to have teeth issues her whole life, and thats something in itself that needs to be discussed with the vet.

[Canni]

Where is the evidence that raw fed diets recover faster from aneasthesia? If there is an article I would be interested in reading it.

Vets themselves commonly feed animals recovering chicken and brown rice so yes it will be fine :) Then slowly add a good qaulity wet food .....
if she's having trouble loosing weight or appetitie you can try some vitamin supplements on her (most are flavoured) we've had success with them at my shelter for underweight kittens.

It sounds like your vet hasn't talked to you much about the procedure which may be something you should bring up with them. Also antibiotics.. I als agree with Ineill that for removing that many teeth your dog should be put on them as a preventative. But again a preblood workup should be able to show whether your dog has an infection etc.