betta lovers and the IBC

[cinnyandsimon]

just wondering how many betta owners here are a member of the International Betta Congress (IBC) or have been in the past . If some have never been , why not , and do you think you ever will join. just a few questions , just wondering

[Punkygirl0101]

I love bettas!! Not apart of that though..

I am curious, since you have so many bettas.. are they all in 10 gallon tanks? Or in jars/cups/vases?

[mynoven]

Bet they are in jars like this guys....

http://www.bettacave.com/BCave.html

I could be wrong.....but still....(sorry to assume, I just have seen a lot of people in and outta this forum now :))

[Catmakemebark]

32 ten gallon tanks is a little extreme. Do you breed betta's? What do you stride for if you do?

I havent heard of that organization...I see no point in it though, because what do you learn from it? Most betta breeders and organizations like that, do not know the housing requirements for a betta. Many clubs and organizations I have checked out do not give there bettas the best of care and most keep them in cups, jars and vases which is unexceptable in my standards. Many betta breeders will breed for a really good one but the others that do not apease them are left in jars or sold to pet stores or walmart and then are bought by people who know nothing of bettas (not all people though;))

[Sorathien]

i would HOPE, that with 32 bettas that would mean a barracks system with a constant drip and overflow to provide fresh water.

[cinnyandsimon]

just so i am straight here , are you implying that the betta cave isn't an acceptable setup . Secondly , how may of you own female bettas?

[Punkygirl0101]

Why would owning female bettas make a difference?

[mynoven]

just so i am straight here , are you implying that the betta cave isn't an acceptable setup . Secondly , how may of you own female bettas?

ummm...he keeps them in JARS!! That is soo mean :(

Maybe it is different because he is a breeder, but I still think it is cruel to keep that many fish, and in that small of space....how would you like to live in something where you have practically no room to move??

What does female Bettas have to do with it?
My mom has one....she tried buying my daughters a "friend" not realizing that Bate will kill her as well!

[Firewolf]

maby cindyandsimon is talking that they have female altogeather. Because people say that females can be put togeather.

My female died. I used to have one. I am getting one in the future.
My female was in a 20 gallon tank.

[mynoven]

maby cindyandsimon is talking that they have female altogeather. Because people say that females can be put togeather.

My female died. I used to have one. I am getting one in the future.
My female was in a 20 gallon tank.

she hasn't answered how she keeps them....in jars/tanks/aquariums.....etc....

Have you seen the betta cave link on first page??

The guy keeps more than half of them in jars!!!

[mynoven]

i would HOPE, that with 32 bettas that would mean a barracks system with a constant drip and overflow to provide fresh water.

I am hoping this is how she has it set up too!!!

[Firewolf]

I saw the betta cavern months ago. I think that is so mean.

[mr gerbil]

It's not mean, it's animal cruelty.
Funny how the same people shudder at the idea of a 'cute' kitten being locked in a cupboard all its life.

[Catmakemebark]

Ooh, she sounds like one of the betta people on fishforum . net.

I have 4 females.

[gbba pres]

I am a member of the IBC and also president of the Georgia chapter. I joined because I wanted to have access to the most knowledgeable group of people concerning Bettas. When I went to one of their shows I was impressed with the quality of the Bettas being shown and the openness of the members in giveing information from their many years of experience. I was particularly helped by the members who are univdersity professors and have done much investigation of Bettas. Their publication "Flair" is by itself worth the cost of joining. With the difficulty of shipping Bettas back and forth between Canada and the United States I would think being able to connect with othe Betta breeders in Canada would also be an asset.

[gbba pres]

I am a member of the IBC and also president of the Georgia chapter. I joined because I wanted to have access to the most knowledgeable group of people concerning Bettas. When I went to one of their shows I was impressed with the quality of the Bettas being shown and the openness of the members in giveing information from their many years of experience. I was particularly helped by the members who are univdersity professors and have done much investigation of Bettas. Their publication "Flair" is by itself worth the cost of joining. With the difficulty of shipping Bettas back and forth between Canada and the United States I would think being able to connect with othe Betta breeders in Canada would also be an asset.

[Bettanbetta]

I am hoping this is how she has it set up too!!!

Why would you hope someone is using this sort of setup when you have just shot down the Bettacave? The Bettacave is a very well built and maintained barracks system, so you have just very eloquently contradicted yourself.

I'm also worried about the fact that you can talk about people keeping bettas in what you consider to be unsuitable circumstances, when you show your ignorance of betta-keeping by asking "Why would owning female bettas make a difference?" It makes a HUGE difference!!!

Female bettas can be kept in huge groups, occasional incompatibilities can arise when certain individuals don't get on, but under normal circumstances females should not be kept in groups smaller than 3!

Male bettas are most comfortable alone and in small quarters as this is how they spend their lives when not spawning. They become easily stressed in large tanks as they feel vulnerable and are not suitable tankmates for many fish as they are often harassed by fin nippers such as gourami and tetras. That is "animal cruelty" to a male betta!!

I suggest that before you start complaining about how people keep their bettas, you learn a little something about these beautiful fish!

As for the IBC... I am also a member, and find it an invaluable resource for learning more about the genetics and keeping of bettas. I'm guessing cinnyandsimon wanted a sensible reply about whether or not the IBC was a valuable resource, not a lot of bitching about how they keep their bettas.

[Firewolf]

The little containers are not even 1 gallon. Bettas should have more the little space betta cavern uses.

[Bettanbetta]

The little containers are not even 1 gallon. Bettas should have more the little space betta cavern uses.

The containers are gallon sized - comfortable for a betta, but since they are linked to a central system that holds considerably more than a gallon, the water quality is equivalent to that of a much larger tank.... so the betta has the best of both worlds - the security of a small tank, and the water stability of a large one.

Those fish will live much longer, healthier lives than the ones people throw into large community setups with unsuitable tankmates...

[WestCoastWonder]

As President of the California Betta Society (northern California - please don't confuse us with LABS) I feel umbrage concerning some of the mis-information about bettas in this thread.

In MY experience, keeping a male fancy betta Splenden in a 10+ gallon tank with filter and a heater set at 80 will do only one thing - stress the fish to death. He'll spend the end of his days floating near the top with clamped fins or some corner of the tank where the current is least. These fish breath air, they don't get their oxygen from the water like a guppy.

The betta Splenden orginated as a short finned pool water fish (no current - thus why they build bubble nests for reproduction). Competition caused them to be highly aggressive (con-specific) to other males as they compete for territory. This trait has not been bred out - not for lack of effort.

The current fancy fin form was created (CREATED) by people to make a fancy display fish. The current fish handles current worse than their short finned form and thus putting thim into a filtered tank will cause these poor guys to fight a current all day everyday of their 'short' life. They only live 2-4 years depending on care, temperature, genetics...

What makes a good environment for keeping a betta Splenden? 1/2 gallon+ container that can be kept warm to 78 +/- degrees (F) with regular water changes. The more water the fewer water changes. Also a good diet (these are insectivores - they like insects, ants, misquito larvae, etc...) will keep them happy and healthy.

Keeping a betta Splenden is NOTHING like keeping a guppy or tetra or cichlid or (your get my drift) and education is key to keeping one happy and healthy. Betta specific clubs and organizations should be considered your #1 source for such information. These are people who take the time to learn and experience what works and what doesn't work. You want evil? Go to wal mart or petco/petsmart and look at those tiny cups that don't get regular water changes.

Anyway - I guess the point of this post is to educate and not rant. Please don't judge a betta keeper/breeder until you have the information. These fish are just fine is small containers - even a 1 quart container with regular water changes. Experience will teach you more than guessing. Conjecture is the same thing that makes a Poodle breeder fixes a female pure bred dog because she had a litter of half poodle / half boston terrier and believes that she'll never be able to have pure bred dogs again. ARGH that really makes me mad. LOL

Know before you go.

[Firewolf]

In MY experience, keeping a male fancy betta Splenden in a 10+ gallon tank with filter and a heater set at 80 will do only one thing - stress the fish to death. He'll spend the end of his days floating near the top with clamped fins or some corner of the tank where the current is least. These fish breath air, they don't get their oxygen from the water like a guppy.

My betta is always fine in a large tank. Bettas in their natural habitat don't live in little puddles as said. They live in large pools. Would you like to live in a small house all day and can't ever go out. You can live like that. Bettas should be in at least 10 gallon tanks.

[WestCoastWonder]

I hate to tell you this - but betta Splendens (fancy fin) don't live in the wild [period]

And you can't compare what you or I would live with with what a fish would/could/can live with. A betta is most comfortable in water that has no current thus no effort for them to swim. Their long fins are counter productive to swimming normally and the fish wears out quickly.

The difference is what is good for the fish. How long have you kept a betta in a 10 gallon tank? 6 months? A year? I've kept them in quart containers for 4+ years with incredible results. Happy, healthy fish that flare and eat with excitement. I have a male betta with great big fins that sits in a 1 liter container on my computer desk. He greets me when I sit down and is very active. I change his water 2 times a week (straight from the tap with a little conditioning thrown in) and feed him 2 pinches of food a day.

You and I are not fish - what I feel or think about living in 1 gallon of water has no bearing on what a fish can handle. Know your fish and its requirements and you'll have a happy fish.

[Kristal007]

And you can't compare what you or I would live with with what a fish would/could/can live with. A betta is most comfortable in water that has no current thus no effort for them to swim. Their long fins are counter productive to swimming normally and the fish wears out quickly.

+1
I can't believe people think it's a fair analogy :rolleyes:. My male betta has flourished and is very happy in his 5 gallon bowl. I've had him forever. Every morning when I get to the office he swims around the bowl happily, and taps on the bowl looking at me. A 10 gallon aquarium is a little much for one male betta. There is such a thing as too big of a living space for certain animals.

[Catmakemebark]

"And you can't compare what you or I would live with with what a fish would/could/can live with. A betta is most comfortable in water that has no current thus no effort for them to swim. Their long fins are counter productive to swimming normally and the fish wears out quickly.

The difference is what is good for the fish. How long have you kept a betta in a 10 gallon tank? 6 months? A year? I've kept them in quart containers for 4+ years with incredible results. Happy, healthy fish that flare and eat with excitement. I have a male betta with great big fins that sits in a 1 liter container on my computer desk. He greets me when I sit down and is very active. I change his water 2 times a week (straight from the tap with a little conditioning thrown in) and feed him 2 pinches of food a day.

You and I are not fish - what I feel or think about living in 1 gallon of water has no bearing on what a fish can handle. Know your fish and its requirements and you'll have a happy fish."


I've kept a betta in a 10 gallon for almost 5 years.

Your betta probably gets excited to see you because its the ONLY excitement he will EVER get in his life.

It sickens me how you think your betta is happy in a cup...A CUP! That is plain cruelty! I am sorry, but you know nothing on the the proper humane way to care for a betta.

[WestCoastWonder]

And just exactly what do you think he's going to do all day in a 10 gallon tank he can't do in 1 gallon???

Their only goal in life is to eat, crap, and have babies.

No amount of tank space, gravel, plants, plastic castle (which tears their fin), areated water (which does nothing for them since they breath air from the surface), or heater is going to make their life anymore worth living than a 1 gallon jar full of water.

Fish aren't people.

[Teehee]

Like some other have said, stop comparing a fish with YOUR lifestyle. You are not a fish, you dont understand how they think/feel etc. And I agree 100% with BettaNBetta and WestCoastWonder. You cant just assume they will be happy in a large tank with a filter, aeration, and a heater. It can kill them. I've had bettas for a while and have done the appropiate research. Oh and to catmakemebark. The only excitement the fish ever gets, right. WRONG. Its a fish, it doesnt have the cognitive ability to feel happiness when they see their owners. Its not a dog, rat or anything else with reasonable intelligence Its not going to be "more happy" in a bigger tank. It is much more content in a safe, secure, high quality watered tank.

[mr gerbil]

Oh My God. The OP makes a whole load of new profiles to "back up" her argument...or possibly entices her buddies to do so. ROFL

I'm saddened that you believe that fish are ornaments. For someone who claims to be so knowledgeable *cough*, you lack basic biological understanding.

Fish have a nervous system and the reflexes that go with this. Fish feel pain.

So, a betta will be just as happy in a small, plain glass of water than a large, heated, planted tank with caves etc? You think so?

As for the fish eat, crap and reproduce comment...take a look at humans. Spot the difference? I don't think so. Perhaps a betta doesn't have such great powers of reasoning, but using that argument to justify your position is similar to lobbying for the incarceration and caging of the mentally ill.

Your position is laughable, and until I see evidence to the contary, I'm going to go on believing that I'm just arguing with one person.

Please tell me your formal biological qualifications with details of independant research and/or links to other studies carried out.

[honeythorn]

The more water the fewer water changes

Preciseley the reason to keep a betta in a ten gallon. Also, most filters now have adjustable power flows. A spray bar could also be used to prevent just a single big jet of water from blasting the betta across the tank. For example. A fluval one filter has a relativley weak flow when the flow rate is adjusted to it's lowest setting. It's big enought to be able to cope with a bettas waste, but not so big as to blast the poor thing across the tank. That's just one example of a filter I have used in the past ( although not with bettas, but with fancy goldfish, who also are weak swimmers due to their finnage, which has been bred into them by people who only care for the fish's asthetics as opposed to it's comfort). What about a basic sponge filter such as used for fry? I can see no reason for not having a filter for any fish. Surely replacing water every 2 or 3 days to remove waste from a very small tank is going to be much more stressful than 25% once a week.

And as for bettas not feeling secure in a ten gallon, that's what plants are for. even if suitable companions cannot be found, a good selection of live plants would not only aid biological filtration, but also provide areas for the betta to retreat to if it feels threatened in any way.

and no, fish aren't people, but they are living beings and deserve the best care and the proper swimming room.

[WestCoastWonder]

Because you are too lazy to do regular fish maintenance is not a reason to put them in a bigger tank. Why not put them in a 1,000 gallon tank - then you'll never have to do water changes.

and I repeat - fish aren't people. They don't THINK like we do. We may eat, crap and reproduce, but we are more than the sum of our instincts where as a fish is very little more than their instincts. They react to survival instincts (I see something that might be food - I'll eat it - if I don't die it's food).

And pain responses in simply lifeforms is there to avoid danger, not feel loss or lonelyness. A droopy fish isn't an unhappy fish, its an ill fish suffering from its invironment.

Fish aren't people.

[Firewolf]

I do the same amount of cleaning as a one gallon needs. Fish arn't as dumb as people think. All the fish I know only eats food that is safe. Even if there is bad stuff in there.

[WestCoastWonder]

I do the same amount of cleaning as a one gallon needs. Fish arn't as dumb as people think. All the fish I know only eats food that is safe. Even if there is bad stuff in there.

I've had to wrestle buttons away from fish. Most will eat first and ask questions later. If they are so smart why do I have to pick them up off the floor when I don't get their lid on right?

[Firewolf]

I never had any problems with fish jumping to ground. I don't even have a lid.

[honeythorn]

I change 25 -40% of the water in my tank every week without fail. as a result my fish are all very healthy, and my testkit readings for ammonia and nitrite are always 0. my nitrate rareley if ever rises above 15ppm due to the fact that i have a lot of live plants. I vacum the subtrate twice weekly to remove uneaten food and fish waste. explain how that is lazy?
This isn't something i've invented to try and make a point of impressing you, I am however offended by the fact that you label me as lazy when I do regular maintenance on my tank.:mad:

[mr gerbil]

I never said that fish are people. Are you by any chance a religious fundamentalist?

"its an ill fish suffering"

So you do agree that fish suffer?

"Because you are too lazy to do regular fish maintenance "

I could use the same purile argument to say "because you are too lazy to buy a bigger tank".

Fish may not be homo sapiens, but our species is nothing special.
In any case, fish can and will adapt to their surroundings. That isn't 'blind instinct', that's a form of conciousness.

[WestCoastWonder]

its not that I'm too lazy to buy a 10 gallon tank (I have 10 of em in my spare bedroom right now), its that I can't buy 10 gallon tank for every betta. That would come out to about 230 tanks right now with grow outs and adults. 1 qt is what they get, it's what they grow up in, and its what works. They get every other day water changes (half of them everyday).

I am not a fundamentalist anything - but I am the kind of person who doesn't name fish. Assigning humanity to a fish is like telling my pomeranian he needs to earn his keep (although the blank stare is very similar).

Even in the betta clubs people treat them as their children and I am not one to deny that - but at least THEY have the correct information and seek it from knowledgeable sources. Be it habitat to disease. We learn and we grow with each passing fish.

I personally breed hundreds of fish a year and only rarely give them out. They are my hobby and my joy - otherwise I wouldn't be here defending them.

Information is key and its important to give out correct info. When this thread hit the IBC board the uproar was pretty hot. How dare YOU tell US how to take care of fish that are our lives - the core of our daily lives - the very things which we base home and hearth on in some instances.

Visit your local betta club some day and see the amount of knowledge and attention we give these fish and you wouldn't dare doubt that we have anything but the best for them.

[mr gerbil]

I name the fish (most), then again, I'm not a fish hoarder. If you don't want to relate to anything through a human trait then why name dogs and cats?

"How dare YOU tell US how to take care of fish that are our lives - the core of our daily lives"

Plotting civilian death is the core of many terrorists' lives, but I'm sure that you would argue against their activities.

[Catmakemebark]

LOL!! That is great.

[WestCoastWonder]

I name the fish (most), then again, I'm not a fish hoarder. If you don't want to relate to anything through a human trait then why name dogs and cats?

"How dare YOU tell US how to take care of fish that are our lives - the core of our daily lives"

Plotting civilian death is the core of many terrorists' lives, but I'm sure that you would argue against their activities.

Who's hoarding - I'm going for quality breeding stock. I give fish to club members (usually end up the best darn it) - the rest are... well... they are fish. I watch them as they mature, watch for traits I like, and fish that don't meat muster go to new homes. Fish that I like get spawned when its time. Right now I'm working with marbles (you wouldn't see them at your LFS so don't bother asking them for some).

And what does giving out bad info about bettas have to do with terrorists? Then again I'm having a conversation with someone called Mr. Gerble - I thought that was an urban myth. LOL

[Firewolf]

True. If people can't compare to fish how come dogs and cats can.

[WestCoastWonder]

BTW - here is a video of my crowntail spawn from earlier this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIu2A3jxy8s#GU5U2spHI_4

I still need to add the video of their parents spawning.

[mr gerbil]

"And what does giving out bad info about bettas have to do with terrorists?"

Bad info? Yes, but not from me. You have yet to write a proper, well thought argument showing your position, not just a few phrases that could have come out of Sunday School.

My "terrorist" point was showing principle. Just because you happen to enjoy doing something doesn't mean that it's morally right.

[phishphreek]

I keep over a hundred bettas. I breed, raise and show bettas.(more than a few actually win) To win at an IBC sponsored international show requires great form, excelent health and attitude. If you'ld like to know how I do it, please send me an email. From the discussion I've been reading most of you are doing a great job of taking care of your pets. (overkill is OK with pets) keep up the good work. I've never figured out what a happy betta looks like. But, I can spot a healthy betta easily, His spine is straight, his fins are perfect, he has no protruding scales, no popeye. he has no holes in his body or fins, he flirts with the girls and flairs his fins at the boys. I'm happy for your betta if you've been able return him to good health after all that he had to go through before you bought him. The IBC encourages us to share information. What works, and what does not. It's always good to compare notes and if in doubt test the options. Then you can share your results with others. It's not bitchin if you offer a better solution. Then it's called constructive critism. Enjoy your Bettas 8^D

[mr gerbil]

Right.

A 10 gallon is not overkill. If anything, it's less than adequate.

Someone on here keeps his betta in a 40gal tank. No, he doesn't go mad, he uses every inch of the space.

[Firewolf]

Ok????? How did these diffrent people that came on petshub go to IBC. And come in just these few days.........

[mr gerbil]

The OP told the members of her forum (searching for it now) to come and rant at us for keeping fish humanely. ;)

[Firewolf]

That's what I think.

[phishphreek]

Ok????? How did these diffrent people that came on petshub go to IBC. And come in just these few days.........

Well, someone pointed out how far out in left field some of the "help" answers were so a few of us thought you might appreciate some correct answers.

[phishphreek]

Right.

A 10 gallon is not overkill. If anything, it's less than adequate.



Obviously I don't understand your consept of adequate. Could you please explain what your defination of adequate is ?

[mr gerbil]

Are we a right wing bigot then?

It's not far left. If anything it's centre-left. Appreciation and acceptance of other creatures is no longer consigned to the middle stages of an lsd trip.

[phishphreek]

Appreciation and acceptance of other creatures is no longer consigned to the middle stages of an lsd trip.

I'm not sure but does this mean that you've stopped taking LSD ?

[Cottontail]

Personal attacks? Have we really gone that low...

[Firewolf]

I think I have't been in that part. If I did just tell me.

[Cottontail]

I don't believe so, firewolf ;).

[mr gerbil]

ROFL...I knew that you would be shallow minded enough to make a comment like that. :laughing:

It means that the "traditional" idea of humans being special in the eyes of god and animals being dumb creatures ruled by instinct is dying.

[Firewolf]

Ok ok. I know I'm shallow minded. I'm always so worried of what people think of me. I try to ignore if I think people don't like me.

[mr gerbil]

Actually, firewolf, that post was not directed at you. It was in response to the guy who jumped at the mention of lysergic acid.

[Cottontail]

Firewolf, I believe he was referring to the other poster.

[mynoven]

[QUOTE=Bettanbetta]Why would you hope someone is using this sort of setup when you have just shot down the Bettacave? The Bettacave is a very well built and maintained barracks system, so you have just very eloquently contradicted yourself.

I suggest that before you start complaining about how people keep their bettas, you learn a little something about these beautiful fish![QUOTE]

I shot the betta cave down because he has many many jars, and that is CRUEL!! I didn't see a drip system, and if he has one, then I apologize....

I'm also worried about the fact that you can talk about people keeping bettas in what you consider to be unsuitable circumstances, when you show your ignorance of betta-keeping by asking "Why would owning female bettas make a difference?" It makes a HUGE difference!!!

ok, obviously you didn't read everything! They asked if we owned Female Bettas with no other reasoning behind the question.....how does taht make me ignorant? I was asking what they meant....

My Betta is in a 10 gallon, and is very happy....I dunno who said they will stress to death, but that is a load of crap! :rolleyes:

Why is this other forum over here? Did we ask them to come and tell us we are treating our fish bad because we give them a large room to swim?

No one over here is a breeder, as I have stated before, and half of us do not think breeding is a good idea.......I don't think fish should be shown.....That's just me....

I AM knowledgable in my fish keeping, because I have a PET fish, whom I have a lot of plants for him to hide in and hidey holes for him to play with, and eventually I am getting a 55 gallon tank for him and a couple of schooling fishes......

I am NOT knowledgeable in breeding because I do not care to breed.....

That's main difference here...you guys are all breeders....we are not....

[Firewolf]

Added... Showing stresses them bettas out.

[Firewolf]

double post...

[mynoven]

I see...I come on and everyone is Gone!! ugg!!

[Catmakemebark]

Aww...right when I get back...:(...I'll just go to fishforum. net...that is always a live wire...although I probably come back banned for "flaming"...petshub is sooooooooooooooooo much better.

[Firewolf]

Oh can you help me Catmakemebark... I can't post on fishforums. I don't know why. I'm posted on newbies though.

[phishphreek]

I shot the betta cave down because he has many many jars, and that is CRUEL!!
Believe me, it is mutch less cruel than not having enough jars.

I didn't see a drip system, and if he has one, then I apologize.... (he does)
Why in your opinion would it make any difference if the water was changed at a rate of 1 drop per minute automatically or 100% every other day manually ?

My Betta is in a 10 gallon, and is very happy....
How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?

No one over here is a breeder, as I have stated before, and half of us do not think breeding is a good idea.......I don't think fish should be shown.....That's just me........
That's main difference here...you guys are all breeders....we are not....
Because some of you who are not breeders have incomplete information on the proper care and feeding of bettas you are propogating help information that is not 100% accurate. We are here to help you. After all, if it were not for breeders there would be no pets in the LFS. If it were not for livestock shows, there would be very little improvement in the stock available breeders and Ultimately consumers. With out shows your betta would be a mud colored minow.


I AM knowledgable in my fish keeping, because I have a PET fish, whom I have a lot of plants for him to hide in and hidey holes for him to play with, and eventually I am getting a 55 gallon tank for him and a couple of schooling fishes......
I'd like to offer a few things for your consideration. Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a wharehouse of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in verry small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins untill in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies. If he's really lucky the pet owner will put him in isolation for a month while he heals in hopes of preventing any spread of infection into the comunity tank. Then just as everything is getting better the pet owner will dump him in the comunity tank and he will have to race for a bit of shelter or green fluf where he can hide form all the other fish.
This does not make for a happy fish. I can tell because there is no smile on his face.


I am NOT knowledgeable in breeding because I do not care to breed.........
And you think this is a happy fish

[Punkygirl0101]

Believe me, it is mutch less cruel than not having enough jars
That doesn't make any sense....

How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?
by how active they are.. they swim around more, they have more room to explore. I had my betta in a tiny bowl for a couple days.. he didn't do much, I moved him to an 8 gallon, and he swims all the time and makes more bubbles, and is so happy.


incomplete information on the proper care
how is wanting our bettas to have more space, improper care?

[phishphreek]

Added... Showing stresses them bettas out.

Actually, you're half right. The actual show it self is not stressful. My bettas are exercised for half an hour each day to strengthen their fins and promote the right attitude. They will spread their fins to the fullest extent when showing off against another male.
Nothing makes them more active and Colorful then struting their stuff.
However overnight express shipping to major cities across the US, Europe, Austrilia & Asia can be stressful, if not to the fish, at least to the breeders.

[phishphreek]

That doesn't make any sense.... OK so what would you do if you didn't have one jar / aquarium for each fighter ?



by how active they are.. they swim around more, they have more room to explore. I had my betta in a tiny bowl for a couple days.. he didn't do much, I moved him to an 8 gallon, and he swims all the time and makes more bubbles, and is so happy.
I have seen lots of little fish swim rapidly to get out of the way of larger fish...... And big fish swim around to chase the little fish. I didn't realize that they were just expressing their happyness.



how is wanting our bettas to have more space, improper care?
That is a deliberate misquote! I never stated that space had a relationship to proper care.

[phishphreek]

That doesn't make any sense.... OK so what would you do if you didn't have one jar / aquarium for each fighter ?



by how active they are.. they swim around more, they have more room to explore. I had my betta in a tiny bowl for a couple days.. he didn't do much, I moved him to an 8 gallon, and he swims all the time and makes more bubbles, and is so happy.
I have seen lots of little fish swim rapidly to get out of the way of larger fish...... And big fish swim around to chase the little fish. I didn't realize that they were just expressing their happyness.



how is wanting our bettas to have more space, improper care?
That is a deliberate misquote! I never stated that space had a relationship to proper care.

[Punkygirl0101]

I have seen lots of little fish swim rapidly to get out of the way of larger fish...... And big fish swim around to chase the little fish. I didn't realize that they were just expressing their happyness.
Thats because I am reffering to people who do NOT breed, and only have ONE betta...

[Punkygirl0101]

of course if you have a ton of fish in one tank, like I have seen in your videos, they are going to try and get away from each other.

[Shellie]

I don't have a betta and I am not good at conflicts so I just have one comment. If you really believe fish cannot experience happiness then you need to see the videos and pictures of my goldfish.

[phishphreek]

of course if you have a ton of fish in one tank, like I have seen in your videos, they are going to try and get away from each other.

I think you have me confused with someone else.
I don't make or have any fish videos.
(got some nice pix)
I do not measure my bettas by the ton.
But I have had 400 fry in one spawn tank. They peruse the java moss looking for infusoria to eat.
And I keep a dozen breeder females in a planted tank.
They love to lay about on the crystal wart and loaf the day away.
But all the males have individual containers. Wouldn't want to damage their georgous fins. But they must not be happy, none of them has a smile on his face.

[phishphreek]

I don't have a betta and I am not good at conflicts so I just have one comment. If you really believe fish cannot experience happiness then you need to see the videos and pictures of my goldfish.

So how do your goldfish express their happyness ?
And how would you measure if one thing makes them more happy than another ?

[Shellie]

The goldfish dance when they see me and ONLY when they see me. They allow me to stroke the glass where they are and often follow my finger as I stroke. There are other examples but its late for me and I am headed for bed.

[mynoven]

Believe me, it is mutch less cruel than not having enough jars.

I agree with punky...that makes no sense. If he didn't have enough jars, there would be fish laying where??

Why in your opinion would it make any difference if the water was changed at a rate of 1 drop per minute automatically or 100% every other day manually ?

I didn't know it dripped like that...I thought it would be a constant flow.....that is cruel as well....

How much time does it take to clean 400 jars a day to keep ammonia levels down??

How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?

Fish don't smile.....they swim around more, swim in and out of hidey holes and plants. Follow your fingers, blow bubbles....if you where not a breeder and had 1 fish to pay attention to, you would know the difference between a sad fish and a happy fish.

Because some of you who are not breeders have incomplete information on the proper care and feeding of bettas you are propogating help information that is not 100% accurate. We are here to help you. After all, if it were not for breeders there would be no pets in the LFS. If it were not for livestock shows, there would be very little improvement in the stock available breeders and Ultimately consumers. With out shows your betta would be a mud colored minow.

Here to help?! hahahaha...oh and also, according to your statement above there....this means we can blame you (Breeders, not YOU directly) for this:

Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a wharehouse of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in verry small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins untill in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies.


As far as how they are raised and brought to the stores....OK, I do not agree with that...that is cruel...but how is that different than keeping them in tiny jars their whole life?? (refering to living space ONLY)


If he's really lucky the pet owner will put him in isolation for a month while he heals in hopes of preventing any spread of infection into the comunity tank. Then just as everything is getting better the pet owner will dump him in the comunity tank and he will have to race for a bit of shelter or green fluf where he can hide form all the other fish.
This does not make for a happy fish. I can tell because there is no smile on his face.

My daughters betta is in a 10 gallon alone.....isolated for 4 months now...most responsible pet owners will NOT put a sick fish in a community tank to infect the others..

And you think this is a happy fish

I think the breeders fish are the NOT HAPPY fish...I know if I was a fish, I would not want to be crowded with others (because as a human I do not like crowded places)....or live in a tiny tiny jar where I couldn't hardly move!
:rolleyes:

[Bettanbetta]

I neither breed nor show, and I do name my bettas for fun, but I don't give them 10gal each to live in, as no-one keeps ANY fish in 10gal of space all to itself... do each of your tetras have 10gal each??? I'd like to bet half of the people on this forum have overstocked tanks because they wanted that one extra purdy fishie!

Can the people who do not or have not kept bettas, learn something about them before posting... and to the person who said they don't live in puddles in the wild - for the most part of the year they do, as everything else is dried up!

If having your fish come to the glass to follow your fingers, and "dance" when they see you means they're happy then mine are very happy in their gallon of water each! In fact mine will come to my fingers in the tank... and sit in the cup of my hand. They must be SUPER happy!

To the MyNoven - I think what Phishphreek meant about the breeding of fish purchased in petstores was the those who know what they're doing when they breed their fish (ie most of the IBC - you go guys!!!) are breeding happy healthy fish in good conditions. Sounds like most of this forum think its acceptable to go and "rescue" the betta in a cup at Walmart, and encourage the sort of commercial breeding that Phishphreek mentioned! And that's a petlover??? Hmmm - in that case I'm glad I'm a cruel heartless fish hoarder who only buys fish from quality breeders who are evil and only keep their fish in 1gal containers....

And just wanted to point out.... MyNoven - you're NOT a fish, so don't speculate on something you clearly know nothing about... Firewolf doesn't even own a betta according to their sig... CatMakeMeBark lists a man who spent his life harassing animals needlessly as an idol... and Mr Gerbil is bringing politics and terrorism into fishkeeping!

Wow - this is some forum!

[mynoven]

I wanna say this:

People!!! UGGG!! ok, I feel better :p

wo...where you come from...lol

but I don't give them 10gal each to live in, as no-one keeps ANY fish in 10gal of space all to itself...

Ummm....I do! My mom keeps hers in a 5 gallon...a lot of people on here keep them in 10 gallons.....

[Bettanbetta]

Oh and just so you know... I have a degree in Zoology and Fisheries Studies.... so feel I am qualified to keep fish, if thats ok with all of you...

[mynoven]

Oh and just so you know... I have a degree in Zoology and Fisheries Studies....

ok....so that is suppose to change my mind? I like to have a huge amount of space for the little Betta....I do not like small spaces...why should I keep my fish in a small tank??
OK, I have to go read the rest of your other post....

[mynoven]

so feel I am qualified to keep fish, if thats ok with all of you...


That's kinda uncalled for....we are entitled to our opinion and debate what we like....statements like that are ridiculous...

[mynoven]

To the MyNoven - I think what Phishphreek meant about the breeding of fish purchased in petstores was the those who know what they're doing when they breed their fish (ie most of the IBC - you go guys!!!) are breeding happy healthy fish in good conditions. Sounds like most of this forum think its acceptable to go and "rescue" the betta in a cup at Walmart, and encourage the sort of commercial breeding that Phishphreek mentioned! And that's a petlover??? Hmmm - in that case I'm glad I'm a cruel heartless fish hoarder who only buys fish from quality breeders who are evil and only keep their fish in 1gal containers....

Wow, you have made me want to contact a breeder and change where I buy my fish! :rolleyes: I am a petluver! so is everyone else on here!

I don't buy animals from walmart because they do not care for their animals....petsores are not much better, but atleast they are nicer to people and do not put people down!

MyNoven - you're NOT a fish, so don't speculate on something you clearly know nothing about...

Who the hell are you to come on here and tell me I know nothing?! I think you and those other guys should just stop posting here.....You do not know me!! Your not a fish either!! For someone with a degree, you sure are NOT very pleasant or helpful!!

Obviously you guys disagree with us, and we disagree with you....so I would suggest to just leave...you guys are causing nothing but arguements and frustration.....

[mr gerbil]

" I have a degree in Zoology and Fisheries Studies."

Aka a degree in fish farming, which caters for fish breeding on an industrial scale with a lack of individual care.

"How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?"

Stupid comments like that will get you nowhere. While the fish might not have a bottle of vodka under one arm and a scantily-clad girl under the other, you can still see "happiness". Behaviour such as active feeding, nesting, exploration. Interest and acknowedgement of his surroundings.

"are propogating help information that is not 100% accurate. We are here to help you."

You're telling us that we're the ignorant ones? Oh dear...
You still haven't given us a good, thought out article persuading your views.

"With out shows your betta would be a mud colored minow."

Better a mud coloured minnow than the product of abuse.

"as no-one keeps ANY fish in 10gal of space all to itself... do each of your tetras have 10gal each??? I'd like to bet half of the people on this forum have overstocked tanks because they wanted that one extra purdy fishie!"

Actually, I think they do. As an extreme example, are you going to argue that a redtail catfish would survive in an 80 gallon tank?
And no, we don't overstock our tanks for that one extra fish. Because we aren't selfish and inconsiderate, and actually view other creatures as beings in their own right.

[mynoven]

ok, I take back you guys should leave bit....I am frustrated because of YOUR GUYS ignorance....

I like to debate....just leave out the personal attacks and try to stay professional....

You got a degree in zoology and whatever else...use what you have learned there and try that instead of telling me I do not know anything :irked:

[Shellie]

I would like to point out that Leah and I have A Dwarf Puffer, as in ONE, in a ten gallon tank. Much smaller than a betta. lol

[Bettanbetta]

so feel I am qualified to keep fish, if thats ok with all of you...


That's kinda uncalled for....we are entitled to our opinion and debate what we like....statements like that are ridiculous...


Is it really uncalled for.. I mean if you feel you have the right to tell us how to keep our bettas, do I not have the right to defend my motives? Being entitled to your opinion, and telling people that they are cruel and inhumane are two separate things I'm afraid.

And I find it difficult to believe that anyone keeps EVERY one of their fish with 10gal of space each - and I don't just mean bettas...

[Shellie]

Actually I have a 55 gallon tank with four fish. That's more than 10 gallons each. Granted they are going to be pretty big fish-three golds and a pleco. Btw, I NEVER said your fish wasn't happy. You or whoever simply asked if we had examples of a happy fish so I gave you some. I do believe fish can be happy and show signs of it. If yours do, more power to you. As I said, I never argued with you about anything, I just point out examples if you ask. Nikki and the others are much better at arguing than I am. I just like to enjoy my happy fish.

[mr gerbil]

"And I find it difficult to believe that anyone keeps EVERY one of their fish with 10gal of space each"

You have a lot to learn about fishkeeping :) .

[Nell]

Wow, this thread has gotten quite long....

So according to the betta breeders who have joined this site just to "educate" us, we are giving bad information to people who would like to keep a betta as a pet?

Notice how I say "pet", not genetics experiment...

So, as betta breeders, you must know that bettas are tropical fish? And as fish enthusiasts, you must know that too cool temperatures stress tropical fish and that fluctuations in temp are also very stressful?
So how do you suppose someone wishing to keep a few bettas as pets keep their bettas at a stable temp of around 78 degrees? No one in their right mind would keep their home at a constant temp of 78 degrees. The only reasonable solution to this is a heated tank of at least 2.5 gal, since the smallest heater is made for no less than 2g of water.

I'm not going to avocate 10g as the bare minimum for a betta (although it is if you want to keep tankmates), but it is certainly not too large, and suggesting a 10gal as a setup for a betta is not absurd, nor is it some crazy left-wing idea just because it seems too extreme to some people who keep their bettas in quart-sized jars. Funny, b/c not even the IBC advocates that practice, according to their official website.

Also, according to the IBC website, bettas should be kept at tropical temperatures, they do not "like" living in small containers even though they can survive it, and most bettas can be perfectly fine in larger tanks with other suitable tankmates... not hanging out in one corner with clamped fins to live a short and miserable life...

[Uhwhy]

18 koi? You must have a kickin' pond, at least 1200 gallons & preferrably larger as thats what you'd need for small koi. Really large koi can require as much as 500 gallons per fish according to my koi research.

4 goldfish in a 55 gallon tank.. plus a pleco?? A common pleco I'm sure too since we are talking petstore fare. Seriously overstocked tank. Pretty cruel stunting those fish in my opinion. Not to mention goldfish are coldwater fish and pleco's are tropical fish. They really should be kept separately.

38 cats plus a ton of other animals? I hope you have a hired staff and live in a mansion to have proper space for these animals. I can't imagine how someone can show proper love and care to 50 dogs and cats. Lets see frontline for 38 cats is approximately $420. Add in the 12 dogs.. another $130. Letsee... heartworm preventative another $50 a month. Im sure theres other costs such as meds for the elderly for their arthritis, heart problems, eye problems etc... then theres the rabies shots required by law for 50 animals a year... and vaccines, Im sure you provide the best of care so they all are current on vaccines. Oh and of course the strays need them to. You do know that legally if you feed strays, you are considered by animal control to in fact be the owner? So thats $600 a month in preventatives not counting food, vet bills, shots, spay/neuters.

You sure hope they have a drip system? But yet, you don't know what one is?

No one in their right mind would keep their house at 78 degrees therefore the only option is a tank of at least 2.5 gallons... Well, imo, I think you should research topics some before handing out advice. There are actually several other options that you are obviously not aware of... such as reptile heating pads, heating cables, fish rooms being heated separately from the rest of the house, smaller containers being heated inside of larger tanks, drip systems which drip heated water, central filtration systems with heated water. This is precisely the type of advice that caused all these "other people" to come to this forum.

You bad mouth an international organization, then complain that they come to your forum.

This is a very interesting forum you keep here.

For anyone seeking information on bettas from people who actually KNOW about bettas.. try some of these sites

http://www.ibcbettas.org
http://www.bettysplendens.com
http://www.bettatalk.com
http://www.bettas-jimsonnier.com/

[Catmakemebark]

Shellie takes VERY good care of her fish. You can bet she will get a bigger tank when it is needed. She knows all this stuff.

Punk is one of the greatest people on here. She rescues all of thoughs animals.

You have no right to come and bad mouth people who have more respect for animals that you.:mad:

Those web sites say 1-2 gallon is minimum. That is cruelty.

[Uhwhy]

Thank you... That is PRECISELY my point.

[Shellie]

First of all, I know my golds and pleco are not supposed to be compatible. However they have been together since day one and at this point are all happy and healthy. It was your forum where I saw someone say every fish is different so please don't judge mine.

Yes, my tank is overstocked. It was not on purpose. I do a water change/gravel vac EVERY THREE DAYS which includes cleaning the canister filter out thoroughly.

They were in a 10 gallon tank for nearly a year while I got money for this tank. I did partial water change/gravel vac DAILY to keep them healthy. They are far from stunted. I have NEVER had ich or any of the other problems because I take extra precautions knowing the tank is too small.

As one of your own posters said quite intelligently, every fish is different, don't judge mine by yours. I haven't argued one thing with you people. Someone commented on happiness so I gave some examples. I work my behind off to make sure my fish are happy and healthy in their environment, how dare you assume I must be a poor fishkeeper.

If your fish are happy and healthy in their smaller containers then great! I have no quarrel with you. If you want more information about my fish then just ask away. I have tons of pics and would love to see your fish as well.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c149/MichelleBogart/Fish/2006_0913Image0016.jpg

[cinnyandsimon]

Well , this has gotten a little out of control , since last i was here . just in case some of you aren't following this to well I am the original Poster of this thread and I have to say I'm a little shocked at how this has unraveled .

Firstly , I would like to thank my fellow IBC members for coming to communicate with the community . I believe it the only course of action , when people accuse the IBC , IBC members and Myself of being cruel and abussive to our fish . It only makes sense that as a community , we come and defend ourselves whether aptly or not . Thank you for trying .

Secondly I would like to appologize for any part in the besmudging of Phils site the BETTACAVE.COM . I am sorry that this great breeders name and operation has been ran through the mud . Very sorry Phil .

Thirdly I would to ask that everyone , atleat try to see the other sides good points . Everyone seemd to be fixated on all the things that are bad about eachothers arguements and never the positive . i think that both sides can agree that most of the points made are valid , and that only a few things stated by BOTH sides may not have been thought out before being posted . Just try , that's all I ask .

At this point I would like to confront all slanderous remarks made about me (the OP) in this thread . I did not start this thread to start a war between the breeders and the pet owners , that is not what I intended , and i don't appreciate the aligation . I did not "post n run" this post is still brand new , and I am sorry I don't check back more often but I have a job , and a busy fish room right now . I did not like the insinuation that i had started a bunch of false memberships so that it seemed like i had more allies than I did .

Lastly i would like to remind everyone that when this thread started it was under the simple question...

"just wondering how many betta owners here are a member of the International Betta Congress (IBC) or have been in the past"

...a simple question that got bashed into the ground , when "YOU" the members of this forum , could have simply said NO . So in the future , read the question and answer it . i did not ask for a war on fishkeeping idealogy , remember that when you're telling the story to others .

Thank you for all your views I would hope this could be the end of something that will never be decided . I wish you all the best with you aquatic endeavers , and everything else that you desire to do as a hobby .

Thankfully your
Jason Sampson
betta breeder

[Catmakemebark]

You said to give reasons WHY we didnt join. You asked what we thought about it. You should expect an answer.

"If some have never been , why not , and do you think you ever will join."

[Shellie]

I didn't even know what the IBC was and I didn't post until someone asked about fish happiness.

[Uhwhy]

how dare you assume I must be a poor fishkeeper

The same exact way it was assumed that all betta breeders must be cruel fishkeepers.

The same exact way that you assumed I'm a member of whatever forum you think I'm from (I actually didn't get here from another forum, but whatever).

I have no beef with anyone in particular on this forum. I just don't like people handing out bad advice about topics they don't know really know about. I havent heard of that organization...I see no point in it though, because what do you learn from it? Most betta breeders and organizations like that, do not know the housing requirements for a betta. Many clubs and organizations I have checked out do not give there bettas the best of care and most keep them in cups, jars and vases which is unexceptable in my standards. Many betta breeders will breed for a really good one but the others that do not apease them are left in jars or sold to pet stores or walmart and then are bought by people who know nothing of bettas (not all people though)


If you haven't heard of the IBC, then you probably aren't in the position to be handing out advice on joining them. In fact, if you haven't heard of the IBC... being that it is an international organization, I'm willing to say that its likely you never bothered researching bettas in depth or their associated clubs.

The question the initial poster asked was not how to care for their betta. It was asking details people joining or choosing not to join the IBC and their experiences with the IBC. But the very first follow up post was aimed at trying to say they didn't take proper care of their fish.

are they all in 10 gallon tanks? Or in jars/cups/vases What does this have to do with the question posted? Nothing other than attmepting to stir up trouble.

[Catmakemebark]

We are giving our reasons of what we do not like your organization and that reason is the way you care for your betta's.

[Uhwhy]

Oh, I see... would you mind enlightening me on how I care for my bettas since you know?

You looked at one persons site. You made ASSUMPTIONS about that persons bettas. Then you said that the whole organization keeps bettas that way. My bad. I certainly see the logic in that.

[Uhwhy]

Oh since we are pointing out everyones flaws, I should also add Catmakemebark that zebra danios are schooling fish and should only be kept in groups. Its rather cruel to keep a schooling fish without a school :(

[Shellie]

I still would like to point out that I never got involved in this!

[Catmakemebark]

That danio was given to me along with two others by my sister who did not want them anymore. The other two died of old age and I would love to get more but that would be cruel to overstock my tank. He also likes to hange out with the bloodfins. I know its not the same but its better than nothing.

Excuse me but your group said they kept betta's in betta caves. I'm sure nobody in your organization cares enought to put a betta in a 10 gallon. I do not agree with the betta cave. I do not agree with your organization.

We were asked a question as to why we didn't want to join the organization. We gave you our reasons which were your methods of betta care. We do not agree with that. Why is that so hard to understand?!?!

[Punkygirl0101]

I plan on putting my betta in a 55 gallon, with some neon tetras, or something... There is no problem spoiling your pets.. but I guess you like you provide the bare minimum..(though its torture!)

[Catmakemebark]

Punky, you and Nikki are going to compete for the best betta tank set up now. :D

[Firewolf]

Firewolf doesn't even own a betta according to their sig...

Wow - this is some forum!


WHAT!! Read under fishes. It says JakeyBoy... He is a betta

[mynoven]

Good Grief!

OK, start with this:
You sure hope they have a drip system? But yet, you don't know what one is?

Never said I didn't know what one is....I wasn't aware that they dripped a drop per minute....big difference......

The OP asked why and if we would...we asked about housing because that is where we disagree with your reasonings....therefore, as already proven on this forum, would NOT get along, as we believe totally different things.

I dunno who went to the other forum crying that we where giving "bad info", but that is a load of crap as well!

Again, it is a difference in opinion, not "Bad advice".

Oh and stated even on many of your sites on the IBC site, that Bettas should be kept in 2.5 gallons or more....

What you guys did was uncalled for....I have NEVER seen people from another forum invade another and attack the people there...that's sad....

I got my 55 gallon today on layaway!!

[Firewolf]

Your lucky. I have a 250 gallon tank. But that is for my three crabs.

[nutkyn]

As far as TFF goes, i think I might be the only person here from there. For the IBC, i don't know. I wasn't even aware they had a forum, but then, I'm not a member -shrugs-

[Uhwhy]

I havent heard of that organization...I see no point in it though, because what do you learn from it? Most betta breeders and organizations like that, do not know the housing requirements for a betta. Many clubs and organizations I have checked out do not give there bettas the best of care and most keep them in cups, jars and vases which is unexceptable in my standards. Many betta breeders will breed for a really good one but the others that do not apease them are left in jars or sold to pet stores or walmart and then are bought by people who know nothing of bettas (not all people though)
Yes, I'm glad you know enough about "my group" that you haven't heard of to base your decision. I suppose the point I don't get is how someone can judge people they have never heard of? You judged "my group" based on one persons website... AFTER you had already judged the group based on... nothing at all.

My "group" didn't say anything. I didn't see thousands of people from all over the world coming here and posting their opinions. And if someone IN my "group" did say something, well, they would be speaking for themselves not the whole group. Theres already a quote in this thread from Nell who actually took the time to go to the IBC site I've heard that Bettas like to live in jars, is this true?
No, although Bettas will survive in small containers if good water quality is
maintained. Bettas evolved in areas of very slow moving water where rice
and aquatic plants were common. Dissolved oxygen is often very poor under
these conditions and the Betta and other similar fishes evolved the ability to
use surface air. They still have gills like other fish and will not “drown” if they
cannot get to the surface. Because of this ability, Bettas can be kept in small
jars and aquaria.

The IBC was founded in 1967.. I believe that its been around more than twice as long as you are old. It has 42 chapters globally and has worked hard to preserve bettas. So hard in fact that they have a species maintenance program. I am sure you are well aware there are over 40 species of bettas many of which are endangered right? Perhaps you could tell me what you have done to preserve bettas while you sit in your parents house throwing stones at people you know absolutely nothing about who are actually working to keep these species from going extinct?

Just as people often stereotype teens as being loud mouthed know it alls that really know nothing, you have stereotyped betta breeders & members of the IBC as cruel individuals that know nothing about bettas. Based on what... well at first, based on nothing.. but then later someone was nice enough to post ONE website for you of an IBC member and then that became your grounds. Well, I know one teenager who is an obnoxious rude know it all. I guess that must mean most or all are also right?

And whoever it was that posted about betta breeders dumping their bettas at walmarts... Well, if you consider fish farms betta breeders then yes I guess so. Major chains have contracts to buy fish from fish farms. They do NOT by fish from small time breeders.

And it really doesn't matter why you have 1 zebra danio... the fact remains you have 1 zebra danio. If adding more would overstock your tank, then perhaps you should consider finding someone who has the appropriate conditions for the fish instead of making it endure something its not really equipped to endure. I believe you did say something about it being selfish to keep fish when you can't meet the fishes needs.


And punky... what do you know about how I keep my bettas that you can make that assumption? Thats been my point the whole time in this stupid thread. You and several others are making assumptions based on thin air.

we asked about housing because that is where we disagree with your reasonings....therefore, as already proven on this forum, would NOT get along, as we believe totally different things.
& Oh and stated even on many of your sites on the IBC site, that Bettas should be kept in 2.5 gallons or more.... First off, the IBC is a group, not an individual. You can't ask one person their view and just say well thats a group view. Second, no one *asked* about housing, someone said oh they probably do this and then everyone jumped on the bandwagon. Third,I never said that providing large housing for a betta is wrong. I never in fact said anything about a min or max. And since you must have not read my whole other post, I have no idea what forum you are talking about... once again another assumption.

Again, it is a difference in opinion, not "Bad advice". Actually, I do pretty much feel that giving out advice based on sterotypes is pretty much bad advice. If you want to tell people 5,000 gallons is the minimum to keep a betta.. fine by me, go right ahead. You are a member of this forum and if they let you say stuff like that... great! My problem is with people knowing nothing about other groups of people and labelling them all a certain way. I have a betta in my 55 now... my 55 is not on layaway while my betta waits for it. Does that make me more knowledgeble than you? A better fishkeeper than you? No. However according to what I'm hearing here... if I'm a member of the IBC, my fish obviously shouldn't be in a 55gallon and Im obviously a cruel person who keeps all my bettas in small jars and has no idea on their proper care. Why is all that? Oh yea, because if you hold an IBC membership, thats the way you are!

All my bettas are kept in containers somewhere between 1-55 gallons depending on their size, personalities & any special care they may need. They are also all kept with plants. Most are in 4 gallons. At one point, I did keep bettas in 1/2 gallon containers. I also changed their water 100% EVERY day when I kept them that way. At one point I was changing 175 1/2 gallon containers EVERY day. When it felt like too much work, I sold/adopted out a large number of bettas and bought bigger tanks and added sponge filters for the ones that remain. So unlike some people who keep their fish even when they know they can't provide proper conditions, I did what I felt was best for my fish.

For the record, I also have experienced bettas freaking out when being put into large containers (yes they were planted). If you have owned 10 bettas in your life, its quite possible that no you haven't experienced that. But if you've owned a considerably larger amount hundreds to thousands... well you probably have experienced it.

[mynoven]

I have no idea what forum you are talking about... once again another assumption.

This was not directed at you, there are other posters on here. :rolleyes:

my 55 is not on layaway while my betta waits for it. Does that make me more knowledgeble than you? A better fishkeeper than you? No. However according to what I'm hearing here... if I'm a member of the IBC, my fish obviously shouldn't be in a 55gallon and Im obviously a cruel person who keeps all my bettas in small jars and has no idea on their proper care. Why is all that? Oh yea, because if you hold an IBC membership, thats the way you are!

you are assuming now....so because you have yours and mine is on layaway.....wait...ok, i just do not understand that statement at all...

Again, some of that stuff was not directed at you....

The IBC was founded in 1967.. I believe that its been around more than twice as long as you are old. It has 42 chapters globally and has worked hard to preserve bettas. So hard in fact that they have a species maintenance program. I am sure you are well aware there are over 40 species of bettas many of which are endangered right? Perhaps you could tell me what you have done to preserve bettas while you sit in your parents house throwing stones at people you know absolutely nothing about who are actually working to keep these species from going extinct?

Why are you here? That is uncalled for.....we are pet lovers, not BREEDERS......so stop throwing STONES BACK!!

[mynoven]

Actually, I do pretty much feel that giving out advice based on sterotypes is pretty much bad advice..

What has been stereo typed? Please explain!

If you want to tell people 5,000 gallons is the minimum to keep a betta.
We have never said anything like that....we go from other sites...even on some of the sites on the IBC site...that 2.5 is minmum....how the hell did you get 5,000? Hmm...oh, your assuming!!

[Catmakemebark]

"Why are you here? That is uncalled for.....we are pet lovers, not BREEDERS......so stop throwing STONES BACK!!"

D to the itto.

[Shellie]

The only point I have been trying to make is that you and the others that have come on here to defend your ideals are generalizing everyone on this forum. I am not going to get in to a right or wrong debate. I just don't understand why you are doing the same thing you claim they are doing. I never said anything about the IBC, fishforum.net, etc. But yet you keep lumping all of us as well. I just didn't appreciate being told my fish were not capable of happiness and I was downright ticked that I was personally attacked when I didn't even get in the middle of this!

[nutkyn]

I got in on this because Cat came to TFF and began lecturing us on how we were wrong. Members there reacted to her very much the way you guys are reacting here. But on that note, like i said, I think I'm the only one here from TFF and i only stopped in to get a feel for things here. I never came to tell everybody that they don't know what they're talking about, and i don't believe I've generalized anyone (if i have, or you feel that i have, I apologize). I just wanted to see where Cat was coming from to be saying the things that she was in my own forum.

i think that the IBC members who came here meant to do much the same thing as me, but many of them didn't do it well, and it ended up with everyone at one another's throats. Things won't go anywhere if you're forever trying to pick apart one another's posts for the smallest inconsistencies, if you're throwing insults at each other, or if you just don't listen. A different view can be frightening, it can be frustrating, it can be boggling, but it's worth hearing even if you don't agree.

[Uhwhy]

so stop throwing STONES BACK!!"
Oh I see, You'd like to throw stones at other people but not have them return the stone to you.

What has been stereo typed? Please explain! It has been stereotyped throughout this thread that IBC members keep their bettas in small jars and do not know how to take proper care of their bettas. And that the IBC promotes keeping bettas in small living quarters. In addition to being cruel, dumping their bettas on Walmart and being selfish. The first response to the initial question is a clear indicator of this and there are NUMEROUS other posts throughout the thread that follow that same stereotype.

We have never said anything like that....we go from other sites...even on some of the sites on the IBC site...that 2.5 is minmum....how the hell did you get 5,000? Hmm...oh, your assuming!! No, I said I don't care if you do... in other words, I don't care if you tell people the minimum is 5 gallons or 20 or 30 or 40 or 100 or 5000. You obviously arent going to tell people 8 oz will work. I'm glad of that. My beef isn't what you are telling people is the minimum they should keep their bettas in. My problem is your statements about how IBC members keep their bettas. In one breath you say the IBC members keep their bettas in a cruel way, then in the next you say even the IBC site recommends... So which is it? You can't lump a large number of people together and just say they are cruel because you once knew a different group of people. But yet this is EXACTLY what Catmakemebark did. And everyone else just followed suit with only a few people taking the time to actually investigate.

That is uncalled for In a thread asking about the IBC, its uncalled for to explain about part of what the IBC does? When people are posting that IBC members are nothing but cruel, selfish people that don't know how to take care of bettas its uncalled for to point out the people having mud slung at them are doing more than the mudslingers for the overall care of bettas?

Most betta breeders that I know are very thankful for pet/betta lovers. They love that there are people that appreciate bettas as much as they do. Most betta breeders I know care greatly for their fish and take very good care of their fish. Most breeders feed live foods or perhaps frozen and give their fish more regular water changes than any other type fishkeeper I'm aware of. Most breeders I know breed to achieve the IBC standards (tho some breed whatevery they like). Many breeders I know breed for better health. After all, whats the point of having a beautiful betta if its not healthy or dies young? I saw someone said they didn't know of any breeders that bred for longer lives. Well, I promise you that I would if I knew how to predict how long my fish would live. Unfortunately my crystal ball doesn't work that well so I breed for health instead as its hard to breed a betta after I already know its lifespan (aka its dead). It also gets harder to breed bettas the older they get. Many people don't bother trying after a fish is 1 year old. I know breeders that put as much care into breeding their fish as reputable dog breeders do into breeding their dogs. They even use pedigrees! They refuse to use fish from poor lines. They save their money to buy fish from good lines so they can produce hopefully only good fish. Why? Because they love and respect bettas. They aren't any different from pet owners for the most part, other than they choose to spend more time with their bettas. Its really a shame to see these people be rewarded for their work/time by having unfounded comments posted about them.

And Shellie, for the record - I do believe that fish can be happy or not. I'm not the one that said that. I also didn't mean to personally attack you. I just randomly pulled signatures from this thread that had issues with the way they keep fish. Every example I gave has a point which could be argued. If only the complaints launched against IBC members had been founded on so much information. Unfortunately they didn't even get that honor. They got judged based on some other groups that one person had known. And once the betta cave site was found, they were judged solely on that.

I am lumping together every person in this thread that called breeders/IBC cruel, unknowledgable, selfish, poor fishkeepers, keeping their fish in the bare min. possible. etc.. Having a debate about fish feelings or minimum requirements for keeping a certain fish is not what I'm talking about. Making unfounded, slanderous comments is however what I am talking about. I haven't defended any ideal unless you mean that you shouldn't sterotype.

[Uhwhy]

And Nutkyn is right. I have better things to do anyway, like go make the brine shrimp for my poor abused fish to eat tomorrow. TTFN!

[Shellie]

I just meant I hadn't said anything against the IBC or betta breeders and didn't like being attacked too. Good luck with your fish.

[mynoven]

I never said anything about all IBC, I said that to keep them in jars was cruel...IN MY OPINION!

The other sites I have pulled from....ugg...I will go back to a previous thread where I posted for people that didn't think 2.5 gallons where minimums....

No one stereotyped all of IBC....just the ones that where posting here and some of the info I have gotten was off of the IBC site. If they did, please post proof.

Nobody said they put them in walmart cups...
That was because someone said that breeders are responsible for this and that...so I said...so it is your (refering to breeders) fault that they end up in walmart....read everything please...

Oh I see, You'd like to throw stones at other people but not have them return the stone to you.

I didn't start the stone throwing!! You came here and started, then when we answered you, you threw them back again!! OMG!! Atleast the other people that wondered from where ever, were not as rude as you!

I am lumping together every person in this thread that called breeders/IBC cruel, unknowledgable, selfish, poor fishkeepers, keeping their fish in the bare min. possible. etc..Having a debate about fish feelings or minimum requirements for keeping a certain fish is not what I'm talking about.

I only said that they housing was cruel, and that I PERSONALLY do not agree with breeding...so what was your reason again?!

Its really a shame to see these people be rewarded for their work/time by having unfounded comments posted about them

Again, in my opinion, I do not agree with Breeding!! OK REPHRASE>>>SO MANY BREEDERS!! Please show me unfounded comments, besides the small housing...that's all I was saying was cruel....someone else might have posted something That I missed...

Breeders are a different variety of people....everyone is different and have different opinions. We all know your side, and every other breeder that has come over here, and you all know ours...so this should be done now right?

You guys sure do have a unique way of INFORMING people of your KNOWLEDGE....telling US we are all unknowledgeable and bad fish keepers!! Yes I will find where you said that! (if it was you)

so many people have come on here in the past few days, can't even keep track anymore!!

[mynoven]

OK, examples of "your group" giving "bad advice" or stereotyping...(makes as much sense as you saying we stereotyping)

1 qt is what they get, it's what they grow up in, and its what works. They get every other day water changes (half of them everyday).

I personally breed hundreds of fish a year and only rarely give them out. They are my hobby and my joy - otherwise I wouldn't be here defending them.

When this thread hit the IBC board the uproar was pretty hot. How dare YOU tell US how to take care of fish that are our lives - the core of our daily lives - the very things which we base home and hearth on in some instances.

ok...this whole thing is just wrong!! 1qt is mean (IN MY OPINION)

But mainly it is wrong because this person is breeding hundreds of fish a year and keeps them all....one reason I am against breeders, what happens to them? Do they all live in 1 qt containers?

In response to this poster: How dare you come here and not have any HARD PROOF that what you are doing is right either!! Especially if you are keeping the hundreds of fish you breed a year!!

A betta is most comfortable in water that has no current thus no effort for them to swim. Their long fins are counter productive to swimming normally and the fish wears out quickly

again, an opinion!! If you do not exercise, your muscles become weak, if they do not swim, they become weak....But again...she is refering to a fancy tail....might not be the same? I know my daughters Betta is a good swimmer!

I only go off of what I have experienced from MY BETTA and a couple of my moms Bettas....but the point remains...EVERY BETTA IS DIFFERENT!!!

As President of the California Betta Society (northern California - please don't confuse us with LABS) I feel umbrage concerning some of the mis-information about bettas in this thread.

In MY experience, keeping a male fancy betta Splenden in a 10+ gallon tank with filter and a heater set at 80 will do only one thing - stress the fish to death. He'll spend the end of his days floating near the top with clamped fins or some corner of the tank where the current is least. These fish breath air, they don't get their oxygen from the water like a guppy.

What makes a good environment for keeping a betta Splenden? 1/2 gallon+ container that can be kept warm to 78 +/- degrees (F) with regular water changes. The more water the fewer water changes. Also a good diet (these are insectivores - they like insects, ants, misquito larvae, etc...) will keep them happy and healthy.

Anyway - I guess the point of this post is to educate and not rant. Please don't judge a betta keeper/breeder until you have the information. These fish are just fine is small containers - even a 1 quart container with regular water changes.
Know before you go.

Yet another OPINION! The "president" even stated that the more water, the less water changes.


Male bettas are most comfortable alone and in small quarters as this is how they spend their lives when not spawning.They become easily stressed in large tanks as they feel vulnerable and are not suitable tankmates for many fish as they are often harassed by fin nippers such as gourami and tetras. That is "animal cruelty" to a male betta!!

I suggest that before you start complaining about how people keep their bettas, you learn a little something about these beautiful fish!

As for the IBC... I am also a member, and find it an invaluable resource for learning more about the genetics and keeping of bettas. I'm guessing cinnyandsimon wanted a sensible reply about whether or not the IBC was a valuable resource, not a lot of bitching about how they keep their bettas.

Language please!

Here is a member that attacked and is stating an OPINION as a FACT!! (that male bettas are more comfortable in small quarters)

Mine is happy in a 10 gallon!
All Bettas are different!!

I also suggest that this person post links or proof of her statement before attacking :)

what good is a debate without proof? We could throw opinions all day long!!

My fav saying: "OPINIONS ARELIKE A**HOLES, EVERYBODY HAS ONE AND NOBODY CARES" or listens....

Some of my SOURCES:
ok,
Bettas can be quite active and fun fish, if you give them ample room in which to live. Many stores sell BettaHex houses or other tiny bowls for bettas, but this is not the ideal way for bettas to live. Deadly ammonia levels can build up very quickly in such a tiny tank and it would require daily water changes to keep your betta healthy; even if you are wiling to make this commitment, water changes can stress fish greatly and should be done regularly but not excessively. While it is true that some more experienced betta keepers do use smaller containers, this requires much more work on your part and is not advised unless you are prepared to do quite frequent water changes and extensive upkeep procedures.

If you choose to cycle your fish tank (setting up a working filtration system), it is usually recommended to attempt this in a tank that is at least 5 gallons in size. Otherwise it may be hard to achieve stable tank conditions.

Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/page%202-housing.htm

Hidey-Hole: Bettas appreciate having a place where they can hide and feel safe.
Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/pag...ecorations.htm

http://www.firsttankguide.net/betta.php
Keep your Betta in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 5 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to the Betta. This will provide sufficient space for your Betta and will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish.

Hidey-Hole: Bettas appreciate having a place where they can hide and feel safe.
Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/pag...ecorations.htm

http://www.firsttankguide.net/betta.php
Keep your Betta in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 5 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to the Betta. This will provide sufficient space for your Betta and will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish.

http://joshday.com/bettafaq.htm
The bigger the better, as in a larger tank of 2-5 gallons you can add other necessities for them to thrive like filters and heaters. Think long and hard before you buy a permanent home for your betta. Most people say that 2.5 gallons should be the absolute minimum, as bettas can grow to be 5” long!

http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=2340
The best environment for Bettas would include a larger (6 plus gallons) aquarium with a completely functional mechanical and biological filter. A heater, lights, and appropriate substrate and cover for the fish would be added. A well set up community tank with several other compatible species is an ideal environment. If these fish are then fed a suitable meat-based diet and appropriate pelleted food, they can live long, happy, healthy lives.

REFERING TO BREEDERS:
http://www.deepbluebettas.com/BettaCare.shtml#Tankreq
A betta should be kept in no less than a 1 gallon container. Many breeders use Beanie Babie containers or quart mason jars, but these fish also get water changes multiple times a week. The larger the container, the less water changes you have to do, and the happier your betta is.
When you get up into the larger tank sizes, like 10 gallons and up, water changes are greatly reduced.

Here are some other links for tank sizes:

Minimum Tank Size: 3 gallon source:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/an...s2/p/betta.htm

a minimum tank size of 8 litres (2 US gallons) is recommended, IF it will be kept in a warm room. Some authorites maintain that for a betta to lead a happy life and live the maximum lifespan, as much as 35 litres (10 US gallons) is necessary.[
source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_Fighting_Fish

Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
Minimum Tank Capacity: 10 gallon
source:

http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=2200

Aquarium Lore
Minimum Tank Size: 3 gallon source:

http://aquariumlore.blogspot.com/200...ting-fish.html

[mynoven]

Is it really uncalled for.. I mean if you feel you have the right to tell us how to keep our bettas, do I not have the right to defend my motives? Being entitled to your opinion, and telling people that they are cruel and inhumane are two separate things I'm afraid.

And I find it difficult to believe that anyone keeps EVERY one of their fish with 10gal of space each - and I don't just mean bettas...

your attitude is what I was refering too.....telling people they are cruel and inhumane is an opinion....but me specifically, I was refering to jars, and qt's....

and defending your motive in your statement is not what you where doing.....how is "so feel I am qualified to keep fish, if thats ok with all of you..." defending your motive??

[phishphreek]

Sorry I missed all the fun yesterday. Sometimes life gets in the way of my hobby.

The goldfish dance when they see me and ONLY when they see me. They allow me to stroke the glass where they are and often follow my finger as I stroke.

So when the source of their food shows up, your goldfish dance.
(Obviously not the 2 step as they have no feet.)
And they follow the hand that feeds them back and fourth until they’re fed.
And you believe that this indicates happiness more than after they’re fed and they are inactive, just laying back and chillin with a fat gut.

Sorry, can’t say that I agree with you 100%

[phishphreek]

http://www.yahoo.com/s/363298

more "happy" goldfish

[Shellie]

And you believe that this indicates happiness more than after they’re fed and they are inactive, just laying back and chillin with a fat gut.

Sorry, can’t say that I agree with you 100%


Here is where you are wrong. My fish will do this even after just fed and are hardly ever inactive. They will STOP EATING to come over and get glass rubs. Again, I am not arguing, just giving more examples.

[phishphreek]

I agree with punky...that makes no sense. If he didn't have enough jars, there would be fish laying where?? :

Come on, you’re a bright girl. If there is not enough jars what do you do with the extra fish ? put 2 in a jar, put the extras in the freezer, throw them on the floor, fill up all your glasses in the cubbard ????

Why in your opinion would it make any difference if the water was changed at a rate of 1 drop per minute automatically or 100% every other day manually ?

I didn't know it dripped like that...I thought it would be a constant flow.....that is cruel as well.... :

Drip feeders come in ½ and 1 gal / hour rates. In a small container like I use, 4”wx4”dx8”h (1/3 gal) that works out to 36 water changes a day. (equivelent of a 12 gal tank) A constant flow would give a similar effect as the spin cycle on your washing machine….. and that would be cruel.

How much time does it take to clean 400 jars a day to keep ammonia levels down?? :

You’re a bright girl, how long would it take you to hand wash 400 glasses in the sink ? (a lot less time that washing 400 – 10g tanks !

How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?

Fish don't smile.....they swim around more, swim in and out of hidey holes and plants. Follow your fingers, blow bubbles....if you where not a breeder and had 1 fish to pay attention to, you would know the difference between a sad fish and a happy fish. :

I know healthy fish, I know sick fish, I know scared fish, I know ready to breed fish and I know the ready to fight fish, But I haven’t see one with a smile on his face yet.

Because some of you who are not breeders have incomplete information on the proper care and feeding of bettas you are propagating help information that is not 100% accurate. We are here to help you. After all, if it were not for breeders there would be no pets in the LFS. If it were not for livestock shows, there would be very little improvement in the stock available breeders and Ultimately consumers. With out shows your betta would be a mud colored minow.

Here to help?! hahahaha...oh and also, according to your statement above there....this means we can blame you (Breeders, not YOU directly) for this: :

I’m not sure what “this” you want to blame someone for….
If you want mud colored minnows, they are still available in the wild but the population is shrinking due to loss of habitat. I have participated in the IBC species maintaince program, breeding and raising some of the mouth brooding bettas that are becoming endangered ( the male betta carries the eggs in his mouth until the fry are big enough to leave home) . You would like these as they peacefully coexist in a community tank. If you would like to volunteer to work on this project, there is more information on th IBC web site.

Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a whare house of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in very small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins until in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies.


As far as how they are raised and brought to the stores....OK, I do not agree with that...that is cruel...but how is that different than keeping them in tiny jars their whole life?? (referring to living space ONLY) :

Finally, we get to the real question. Health & Happyness (if you must use that word) depend on water quality not physical size of the container.
The smaller the container, the more often the water needs be changed in order to maintain good quality water. A betta in a clean 6 oz container is better off that a betta in a polluted 10g tank. He may not have a smile on his face but he will live longer. So the answer is yes, if you don’t have time to properly maintain the water quality in your tank then you need a minimum of 10g for one fish. And yes if you work very hard at maintaining good water quality you can keep healthy bettas in smaller containers. The size of the container determines how much work it takes to maintain water quality.

If he's really lucky the pet owner will put him in isolation for a month while he heals in hopes of preventing any spread of infection into the comunity tank. Then just as everything is getting better the pet owner will dump him in the comunity tank and he will have to race for a bit of shelter or green fluf where he can hide form all the other fish.
This does not make for a happy fish. I can tell because there is no smile on his face.

My daughters betta is in a 10 gallon alone.....isolated for 4 months now...most responsible pet owners will NOT put a sick fish in a community tank to infect the others.. :

Unfortunately, most people who keep fish as “pets” have not been properly educated about good procedures, care and maintaince of their fish. Hopefully they will find a place like Petshub with helpful members who will teach them the right way to do things before they kill all their fish and drop out of the hobby. That is why we want to help you and make sure you have good information to share with all the new hobiests.

I think the breeders fish are the NOT HAPPY fish...I know if I was a fish, I would not want to be crowded with others (because as a human I do not like crowded places)....or live in a tiny tiny jar where I couldn't hardly move!
:rolleyes:

I just checked again and none of my Bettas have a frown on their faces.
(maybe they smile a little bit when I put their awards up next to their containers and I love the way they flare with excitement when I release a female into their 10g spawn tank.)
Maybe if you were not at the top of the food chain you would have a different concept of space. Would you rather live in a very big swamp with mosquitoes and crocodiles or in a City in a little bitty apartment and a good alarm system ?

[phishphreek]

Here is where you are wrong. My fish will do this even after just fed and are hardly ever inactive. They will STOP EATING to come over and get glass rubs. Again, I am not arguing, just giving more examples.

Well I have to admit that its been a few years since I took PSY-101 in college (1966) but if I remember correctly your results are similar to Pavlov's in that after using a bell to signal feeding time, his dogs would salavate and he would feed them. He then discovered that the dogs had become conditioned and that he would ring the bell and they would salivate and he no longer had to feed them to get the disired results.

[Shellie]

You just don't get it. They don't do always do it over food. And I watched that video. Its cool but not what I am talking about. Those fish were taught a trick. Mine dance because they want to. I thought that video was a bit disturbing, more like automatons. I know some behaviors are indicative of things they learn in the wild but how do you explain bumping a plant into the bubble wall and then bumping it back and forth as it bobs? There is no other purpose for that other than sheer enjoyment. Its not hunting behavior, its not mating, etc.

[phishphreek]

[QUOTE=mynovenwe are entitled to our opinion and debate what we like....statements like that are ridiculous...[/QUOTE]

Yes, you certainly make your opinion known and that would be fine if you included IMHO (in my humble oppinion) But you have a tendenancy to state your opinion like it was fact and you had data to back it up. Fish keeping is a science and science requires facts. When you say the minimum size tank for a single male betta is 10g, is that your opinion or have you tried unsuccessfully to keep one in a 9.5 gal tank ?

[Shellie]

I'm not even going to debate Bettas with you because I have never had one. I can only tell you about goldfish and I realize that even there, every fish is different. I read the thread on fishforum and actually have to admit I learned a lot and there were some good points. But I don't have Bettas so I can't really say much.

[phishphreek]

You just don't get it. They don't do always do it over food. And I watched that video. Its cool but not what I am talking about. Those fish were taught a trick. Mine dance because they want to. I thought that video was a bit disturbing, more like automatons. I know some behaviors are indicative of things they learn in the wild but how do you explain bumping a plant into the bubble wall and then bumping it back and forth as it bobs? There is no other purpose for that other than sheer enjoyment. Its not hunting behavior, its not mating, etc.

Pavlov proved that once you have trained the amimals, they will continue to do their tricks without reward.

If you watch a young child you will see him put an asortment of thing in his mouth. This is not an expression of happyness but mearly an exploration of his environment.

[Shellie]

I didn't train them! LOL We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. :)

[nutkyn]

you can train animals (and children) without meaning to. Dogs learn that by barking and pawing and scratching they will get eventually get the attention that they want, then it becomes an almost unbreakable habit.

[Shellie]

I know, I just disagree that its unintentional trained behavior. They don't put the plants in their mouths, they bump them until they end up in the bubble wall then they bump them back and forth to each other. I also can't explain a pleco protecting the smallest goldfish but yet he does. Like I said, I think we just have to agree to disagree. At the end of the day, my tank parameters are perfect just like yours and that's enough for me. I DO plan on getting them a bigger tank. Btw, for everyone on the forum, TJ is NOT allowed to win a fish at the Harvest Festival this year! LOL

[nutkyn]

even if it is, it means that they are secure enough in their environment to do so, so the point is moot. an unhappy fish is generally listless or skittish in my experience, and in niether case do they explore or interact with their environment.

[phishphreek]

"How do you measure your bettas happyness ? Is it the smile on his face or do you hear a little giggle when his bubbles pop?"

Stupid comments like that will get you nowhere. While the fish might not have a bottle of vodka under one arm and a scantily-clad girl under the other, you can still see "happiness". Behaviour such as active feeding, nesting, exploration. Interest and acknowedgement of his surroundings.

Although I have never seen a smile on their face or a twinkle in their eye, by your standards my Bettas must be happy in their 1/3gal containers. They eat plenty of live food twice a day, build bubble nests, they show interest & Interact with the adjacent 2 bettas when I exercise them, and I’ve never known any of them to refuse to acknowledge their surroundings

"are propogating help information that is not 100% accurate. We are here to help you."

You're telling us that we're the ignorant ones? Oh dear...
You still haven't given us a good, thought out article persuading your views.

I realize that you think you know everything but as you mature you will find that the list of things you do not know is much longer than the little you do.
If you want to post your opinion, please label it (IMHO) But if you continue to post information as FACT they be prepared to back your statements with relevant data rather than political BS. Biology is a Science.

[ "With out shows your betta would be a mud colored minow."

Better a mud coloured minnow than the product of abuse.

If you would prefer to work with endangered species / wild bettas please contact the IBC for more information.

[mr gerbil]

Where to start? This is going to be a long post, please bear with me. Oh, and for I begin, phishphreek, you're an arrogant sod.

"Seriously overstocked tank. Pretty cruel stunting those fish in my opinion. Not to mention goldfish are coldwater fish and pleco's are tropical fish. They really should be kept separately."

Hell yes! But did you know that smaller fish don't have to go in the tank size that they'll need as adults? For someone who doesn't have an unlimited budget, putting the fish in a 55 for a while is far better than keeping them in a 10 and saving up indefinately.

"38 cats plus a ton of other animals? I hope you have a hired staff and live in a mansion to have proper space for these animals. I can't imagine how someone can show proper love and care to 50 dogs and cats."

It's called rescue work. Something which, as a breeder, you probably wouldn't be very familiar with.

"I am sorry that this great breeders name and operation has been ran through the mud . "

Great breeder = great exploiter of animals. What a poor misguided fool if he actually believes he's doing a humane act.

"The same exact way it was assumed that all betta breeders must be cruel fishkeepers. "

It wasn't. However, we are naive enough to assume that people who keep fish in stunted, cramped conditions whilst knowing the full facts of what they're doing are either cruel or are misguided in the extreme.

"I'm willing to say that its likely you never bothered researching bettas in depth "

Wrong! Whilst I have encountered the IBC name in my travels, I have never payed any real attention to it. Why? Because I'm not a betta breeder.

"So hard in fact that they have a species maintenance program."

Isn't it best to let a species die out rather than abusing its few remaining specimens?

"you have stereotyped betta breeders & members of the IBC as cruel individuals that know nothing about bettas"

Nope. Read the comment further up.

"and if they let you say stuff like that... great!"

Actually, we don't have a "Mr Big Moderator" on here who dictates what we say. The internet is for free speech, not censorship. If you enjoy that sort of system on your forum, I suggest that you stay there and wallow in the filth of unchallenged servitude.

"it's worth hearing even if you don't agree."

Damn right...couldn't agree more. Nutkyn is the only person I can think of who has debated this in a rational, mature way.

"And you believe that this indicates happiness"

What would you call it, then? If the fish were lethargic and uninquisative, I think that you would describe it as unhappiness. "Happiness" may be a human invention, but everything we use to relate is as well. Might as well say that fish don't "die".

"Come on, you’re a bright girl."

That kind of patronising language towards a mother of two children is not civilised. Curb your tongue...or at least your typing fingers :p .

"Unfortunately, most people who keep fish as “pets” have not been properly educated about good procedures, care and maintaince of their fish. Hopefully they will find a place like Petshub with helpful members who will teach them the right way to do things before they kill all their fish and drop out of the hobby. That is why we want to help you and make sure you have good information to share with all the new hobiests."

That is the final straw. I assure you that we are in no need of "re-education programmes" (sounds like something from behind the Iron Curtain) from a pompous twat who has clearly shown himself to know next to nil about HUMANE methods of keeping fish.

Rant over :) .

[mr gerbil]

"I realize that you think you know everything but as you mature you will find that the list of things you do not know is much longer than the little you do.
If you want to post your opinion, please label it (IMHO) But if you continue to post information as FACT they be prepared to back your statements with relevant data rather than political BS. Biology is a Science."

I resent comments about my personality from someone who clearly knows nothing about it.

I'm the last person to say I know everything. I've never claimed to. However, I might be a little more clement towards your posts if you turned down the aggression just a tad.

In My Humble Opinion...rofl. My opinion is certainly not humble, neither do I make wild unsourced statements from the depths of my imagination.
I dislike debates where people try to curry favour by throwing links and references at you. It tends to show a lack of knowledge of the subject by themselves.

[Punkygirl0101]

Yeah, I do have 30 cats and 12 dogs.. but the point is, they are not here because I BRED them.. they are here because I RESCUED them. People like you brought them onto this planet, and I am taking care of them so they are not homeless, and dying of starvation.. and breeding, and breeding, and adding even MORE cats onto the planet for people who do rescue work, to find.

And you still make NO sense with that jars comment. I posted about keeping my fish in a larger tank, rather jar.. and then you said, "Where would they put the fish if they ran out of jars?".. and that makes NO sense as to what I posted, and STILL makes no sense in the conversation we are having.

Why don't you go BACK to the forum you came from, continue to breed your bettas (poor things) and force them to live in tiny little cups. I prefer mine being happy, not crammed in a jar.

[phishphreek]

Wow, this thread has gotten quite long....

So according to the betta breeders who have joined this site just to "educate" us, we are giving bad information to people who would like to keep a betta as a pet?

Well if you go back and check, I believe I said incomplete not bad information. This often happens when people make assumptions or do not understand the underlying scientific principals.

Notice how I say "pet", not genetics experiment

Good betta breeders rarely experiment with genetics. They select the parents that carry the genetics desired in the offspring.

So, as betta breeders, you must know that bettas are tropical fish? And as fish enthusiasts, you must know that too cool temperatures stress tropical fish and that fluctuations in temp (beond typical day/night fluctions) are also very stressful?
So how do you suppose someone wishing to keep a few bettas as pets keep their bettas at a stable temp of around 78 degrees? No one in their right mind would keep their home at a constant temp of 78 degrees. Actually only left handed people are in their right mind. And Yes, I keep my home at 78 deg f and my fish room at 83 deg f The only reasonable solution to this is a heated tank of at least 2.5 gal, since the smallest heater is made for no less than 2g of water. Please reread the instructions as I believe them to state that the heater is rated for no more than 2.5 gal Actually even the largest of heaters can be used on a small container of equal or larger size. This is because they are supplied with thermostats.

I'm not going to avocate 10g as the bare minimum for a betta (although it is if you want to keep tankmates), but it is certainly not too large, and suggesting a 10gal as a setup for a betta is not absurd, nor is it some crazy left-wing idea just because it seems too extreme to some people who keep their bettas in quart-sized jars.
I think you are seeing culture shock here. Most betta breeders keep their fish in bare containers because they are easier to clean & maintain. And a bare 10 gal tank is stressful to a fish that has spent his life in a 1 gal or smaller container. On the other hand most pet betta owners have been trained to take proper care of fish that absorb oxygen through their gills and need a large amount of water to provide sufficient oxygen.
Funny, b/c not even the IBC advocates that practice, according to their official website. Bettas come in a lot of sizes. I keep my ½” juvies in quart jars, I keep my show stock in 1/3g barracks, I keep my breeders in 1g pickle jars and I keep my 5” giants in 2.5g tanks. I doubt that you can find any 3 breeders who do things the same way.

Also, according to the IBC website, bettas should be kept at tropical temperatures, they do not "like" living in small containers even though they can survive it, small = 6oz cup and most bettas can be perfectly fine in larger tanks with other suitable tankmates... watch out for tank bullies as they will nip the bettas long flowing fins not hanging out in one corner with clamped fins to live a short and miserable life... clamped fins are a sign of poor water quality, not the size of the container

I hope you’ll be able to put all this information to good use.

[Punkygirl0101]

I am sure Nell hopes YOU will use that information wisely.. and stop keeping those POOR fish of yours in tiny little jars and cups.

[phishphreek]

you still make NO sense with that jars comment. I posted about keeping my fish in a larger tank, rather jar.. and then you said, "Where would they put the fish if they ran out of jars?".. and that makes NO sense as to what I posted, and STILL makes no sense in the conversation we are having.

Perhaps the reason that it makes no sense to you is that I was responding to someone else - and you jumped into the middle with out knowing what was going on. Interface with brain before operating keyboard.

Originally Posted by mynoven
I shot the betta cave down because he has many many jars, and that is CRUEL!!

PhishPhreek - Believe me, it is mutch less cruel than not having enough jars.

Originally Posted by Punkygirl0101
That doesn't make any sense....

PhishPhreek - OK so what would you do if you didn't have one jar / aquarium for each fighter ?

Originally Posted by mynoven
I agree with punky...that makes no sense. If he didn't have enough jars, there would be fish laying where??

PhishPhreek - Come on, you’re a bright girl. If there is not enough jars what do you do with the extra fish ? put 2 in a jar, put the extras in the freezer, throw them on the floor, fill up all your glasses in the cubbard ????

If you had that many bettas can you think of a solution that is less cruel that putting each male in his own container ?

[mr gerbil]

You're missing the point, and that is that you do not need so many bettas. Hell, you don't need any bettas at all. You don't morally 'own' them.

Only look after what you can. Quantity is no excuse for sub-standard living conditions.

[phishphreek]

I am sure Nell hopes YOU will use that information wisely.. and stop keeping those POOR fish of yours in tiny little jars and cups.

I do my best to use any factual information that I find and when I receive half accurate information such as Nell is quoting, I do my best to verify it through experimentation before I pass judgement.
(sorry if you have a problem with my experimenting on my fish but it seems the best way to get reliable information.
My fish are not poor, the're broke. But they do receive the best food and care available and I have the ribbons, trophies, plaques and certificates to prove it. Once again and I am getting tird of repeteing myself.... it's water quality not container size.

[Punkygirl0101]

Maybe all that matters to have a pretty fish is water quality.. it seems all you care about is winning ribbons with those fish of yours.. but tank SIZE is important for MENTAL health and stimulation AND happiness. Fish need space to swim around in to be HAPPY.. and I guess thats why you differ from us. We believe tank size is MOST important because we like our fish to be HAPPY.. not just pretty.. and you want you fish to be pretty.. so you can win trophies and ribbons..

[phishphreek]

You're missing the point, and that is that you do not need so many bettas. Hell, you don't need any bettas at all. You don't morally 'own' them.

Only look after what you can. Quantity is no excuse for sub-standard living conditions.

I'm missing the point ? I think the shoe is on the other foot.

We were discussing propper care of bettas. My show winning bettas are some of the best quality bettas in the world. If they didn't receive the best care, food and treatment they wouldn't place so high at international shows. And if they were not champions I wouldn't have people standing in line to buy them.
And yes, champion bettas do sell for a lot more that pet bettas. Partially because they're champions but mostly because there better and they receive better care.

[Nell]

... Well, imo, I think you should research topics some before handing out advice. There are actually several other options that you are obviously not aware of... such as reptile heating pads, heating cables, fish rooms being heated separately from the rest of the house, smaller containers being heated inside of larger tanks, drip systems which drip heated water, central filtration systems with heated water. This is precisely the type of advice that caused all these "other people" to come to this forum.


Actually, I am well aware of other ways of heating water. If you pay attention to what I posted, you'll notice that my question was: "So how do you suppose someone wishing to keep a few bettas as pets keep their bettas at a stable temp of around 78 degrees?" I also stated that the only reasonable way was in a tank of at least 2.5g.

I'm aware of heated fish rooms, as I've actually thought about maybe setting one up myself some day...
I am also quite aware of drip systems and central filtration systems.
but I also know that this is impractical for anyone without a lot of fish or tanks.

I am also aware of heating cables, but this is also impractical because they are not widely available and they're expensive.

reptile heating pads? From what I understand, most of these are designed to heat to a specific temp, such as 100 degrees...

And smaller containers inside of larger tanks? I am also aware of that one, and I know that not even the author of bettatalk.com reccommends it...

I DO research quite thoroughly before handing out advice. I also cater my advice to the individual and their needs, which is why you won't find me reccommending any of those other options which I am "obviously not aware of."

[nutkyn]

I would be careful where i step in that land mine. You might be better off saying that they come from better lines than (most) pet bettas, and that they aren't generally selling as pets, but to be bred to further this line or that.

people love their pets and it's probably as unwise to say that this HMDT-butterfly-yada-yada-yada from so-and-so's lines is better than that 3 dollar pet store VT as it is to say a purebred arabian is better than a child's grade pony.

Value is inconsistent. Your champion bettas may have a high price, but to these people, their pets are priceless.

[phishphreek]

Punkygirl0101]Maybe all that matters to have a pretty fish is water quality..

Far from it. To have pretty fish takes many many factors, but a key one is good health and good health takes proper neutrition, great water quality, isolation from contaminated fish and water, positive self attitude, and good breeding.

it seems all you care about is winning ribbons with those fish of yours..

Yes, I am a my fish is better than your fish type of guy. Also my dog is better that your dog and my dad can beat up your dad.

but tank SIZE is important for MENTAL health
how do you measure mental health of a fish ?

and stimulation
You may have a point here, I have read some articles that artificially hatched trout when exposed to obstacles in their grow out tank showed increased growth in the part of their brain that dealt with obstacles.

AND happiness.
Still haven’t seen a fish with a smile

Fish need space to swim around in to be HAPPY..
If you can figure out a way to measure HAPPYNESS then I will be glad to test various container sizes to discover what will give the maximum happiness.

and I guess thats why you differ from us. We believe tank size is MOST important because we like our fish to be HAPPY.. not just pretty.. and you want you fish to be pretty.. so you can win trophies and ribbons.
No the difference is that we deal in measurable facts and you deal in beliefs - Which is fine is you qualify your statement with IMO

[phishphreek]

Shellie takes VERY good care of her fish. You can bet she will get a bigger tank when it is needed. She knows all this stuff.

Punk is one of the greatest people on here. She rescues all of thoughs animals.

You have no right to come and bad mouth people who have more respect for animals that you.:mad:

Those web sites say 1-2 gallon is minimum. That is cruelty.

Yes, I think the majority of people here on PetsHub are great fish people who care deeply for their pets.
Amn they are extreemly knowledgeable for amatures.

You can go back to the beginning of the thread and check but I believe is was the amatures that started bad mouthing the pros. So yes we do have the right to come here and offer the opposing viewpoint.

You use that word "CRULETY" like a mighty sword. But it doesn't make you right just because you learned a big word. If you would like to have a rational discussion about container size I would be happy to discuss it with you. Again it's not container size that makes a healty betta, it's water quality.

[mr gerbil]

"I do my best to verify it through experimentation"

Ah, so you're a vivisectonist as well? That's just the icing on the cake...

"it's water quality not container size."

LOL! We are obviously unfamiliar with a little thing called TANK STUNTING, not to mention general welfare.

"Partially because they're champions but mostly because there better and they receive better care."

Because their offspring will be worth more money. It's about profit, not care.

"Yes, I am a my fish is better than your fish type of guy."

You're certainly giving that impression...

"
Still haven’t seen a fish with a smile"

Now who's putting human traits on fish? Huh?

"No the difference is that we deal in measurable facts and you deal in beliefs"

If the world was run by people like you, dear god no. You show the attitude of the worst kind of Darwinism. You consider nothing unless it's verified by 10 independent researchers and signed by a guy with 2 PhDs.

"Amn they are extreemly knowledgeable for amatures."

It's spelt amateur. Also, I would refer to you as one as well.

"Again it's not container size that makes a healty betta, it's water quality."

Both, alongside other factors.

Oh, and quit patronising us. We're not in nursery school...although with your childish insults, you seem to want to go back there.

[Nell]

So, as betta breeders, you must know that bettas are tropical fish? And as fish enthusiasts, you must know that too cool temperatures stress tropical fish and that fluctuations in temp (beond typical day/night fluctions) typical day or night fluctuations in your average home can be as much as +/- 20 degrees are also very stressful?
So how do you suppose someone wishing to keep a few bettas as pets keep their bettas at a stable temp of around 78 degrees? No one in their right mind would keep their home at a constant temp of 78 degrees. Actually only left handed people are in their right mind. lol, was this an attempt at a joke? I could disagree with that point too..And Yes, I keep my home at 78 deg f and my fish room at 83 deg f so you must be right-handed then?The only reasonable solution to this is a heated tank of at least 2.5 gal, since the smallest heater is made for no less than 2g of water. Please reread the instructions as I believe them to state that the heater is rated for no more than 2.5 gal Actually even the largest of heaters can be used on a small container of equal or larger size. This is because they are supplied with thermostats.I am refering to the Hydor mini heater, and as per the instructions it states that it is for use in aquariums 2-5g. Using a heater in a volume of water less than that is very risky, because at the rate it heats the water, it would become too warm before it shuts itself off, causing dangerous fluctuations

I'm not going to avocate 10g as the bare minimum for a betta (although it is if you want to keep tankmates), but it is certainly not too large, and suggesting a 10gal as a setup for a betta is not absurd, nor is it some crazy left-wing idea just because it seems too extreme to some people who keep their bettas in quart-sized jars.
I think you are seeing culture shock here. Most betta breeders keep their fish in bare containers because they are easier to clean & maintain. And a bare 10 gal tank is stressful to a fish that has spent his life in a 1 gal or smaller container. On the other hand most pet betta owners have been trained to take proper care of fish that absorb oxygen through their gills and need a large amount of water to provide sufficient oxygen.culture shock? I am well aware of the reasons breeders keep their fish in little bare jars (...they don't even get a plant or some moss...???) I also never said anything about a 10g betta setup being a bare tank. In fact, I would never advocate a bare tank as a long-term set-up for any fish because of it being way too stressful, so I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.
But on the contrary, most pet betta owners have NOT been trained to take proper care of their fish. This is why you'll find so many people keeping them in little goblets on their coffee table, changing their water every few weeks or keeping them in those horrible vases with the peace lilly on top and neglecting to feed them
Funny, b/c not even the IBC advocates that practice, according to their official website. Bettas come in a lot of sizes. I keep my ½” juvies in quart jars, I keep my show stock in 1/3g barracks, I keep my breeders in 1g pickle jars and I keep my 5” giants in 2.5g tanks. I doubt that you can find any 3 breeders who do things the same way.your point?

Also, according to the IBC website, bettas should be kept at tropical temperatures, they do not "like" living in small containers even though they can survive it, small = 6oz cup is that what they meant? because the only size I saw specified was a min of 1/2g...and most bettas can be perfectly fine in larger tanks with other suitable tankmates... watch out for tank bullies as they will nip the bettas long flowing fins would you like to search my previous posts and find a reply about tankmates where I don't already mention this?not hanging out in one corner with clamped fins to live a short and miserable life... clamped fins are a sign of poor water quality, not the size of the containerperhaps you should explain this to WestCoastWonder who stated that: "In MY experience, keeping a male fancy betta Splenden in a 10+ gallon tank with filter and a heater set at 80 will do only one thing - stress the fish to death. He'll spend the end of his days floating near the top with clamped fins or some corner of the tank where the current is least. These fish breath air, they don't get their oxygen from the water like a guppy."


I would also like to make it clear that I never once bad-mouthed the IBC or made a blanket statement that all betta breeders have cruel practices.
I am only supporting the information that I give people based on my research and personal experience.

Nor did anyone here (that I'm aware of) tell any breeder how they should keep their fish, only stated their opinions of their practices.

and what is all this bickering about "well a jar is better that the floor or toilet or with another male betta..." I also see this arguement as totally pointless because a resonsible person does not get any animal, whether it be dog or fish, if they can't care for it.

and aparently an animal needs to be capable of smiling to show they are happy? You seem to be stuck on this concept since you keep stating it, even though we all know that most animals, and especially fish, are not capable of smiling...
So does that mean that I can't know that my cats are happy because they can't physically smile? Does that mean that my rabbits are only just healthy and that I can't know that they're happy, because they don't smile? Or could it be that I can tell by their actions and don't need to see a smile?

[phishphreek]

Excuse me but your group said they kept betta's in betta caves. I'm sure nobody in your organization cares enought to put a betta in a 10 gallon. I do not agree with the betta cave. I do not agree with your organization.

You would actually need to be a member of the IBC to understand how far out of touch with reality you really are. Phill is a senior and well respected member of the IBC. For years he has been know as the old Dragon due to his seniority. And the Old Dragon designed a fish room in the basment of the home he was building. The room became known a the Dragon's Cave and the Cave became known as his betta cave. The cave is more than likely on par with your local fish shop (bigger than your home) With custom built racks, tanks, drip systems, and equipment. This is not some dark hole between some rocks. :p

[Punkygirl0101]

and my dad can beat up your dad.
My dad died 10 years ago.. unless your dad is crazy, and likes to beat up dead people remains.. then let him be my guest ;).

Happiness is not ONLY shown with a smile. A human being can be happy, and not smile.

[mr gerbil]

In the same way that torture chambers tend to be rather modern and impressive. And the torturers, if they're professionals, know what they're doing.

So, your point is...?

[phishphreek]

Phishphreek-"I do my best to verify it through experimentation"

mr gerbil-Ah, so you're a vivisectonist as well? That's just the icing on the cake...

Actually my eyes are not that good and my hand is not that steady.
Most of my experiments are cause and effect.

"it's water quality not container size."

LOL! We are obviously unfamiliar with a little thing called TANK STUNTING, not to mention general welfare.

If you do a little research, I believe you’ll find that Tank Stunting is caused by enzymes given off by the other fish. – another water quality issue.

"Partially because they're champions but mostly because there better and they receive better care."

Because their offspring will be worth more money. It's about profit, not care.

Yes, like champion Dogs & Cats, their offspring are more valuable. Why would anyone want to have a litter of junkyard dogs when for the same costs they could produce registered animal that are in demand? But mostly it’s for the recognition - Mine is better than yours!

"No the difference is that we deal in measurable facts and you deal in beliefs"

If the world was run by people like you, dear god no. You show the attitude of the worst kind of Darwinism. You consider nothing unless it's verified by 10 independent researchers and signed by a guy with 2 PhDs.

I’d prefer to discuss proper care for fish rather than your opinion of world government.

"Amn they are extreemly knowledgeable for amatures."

It's spelt amateur. Also, I would refer to you as one as well.

Sorry, I forgot to use the spell checker. While it is true that I don’t make my living from my bettas, I do make a little, and that by definition makes me a pro. I’m satisfied as long as I make enough to pay for my hobby.

Oh, and quit patronising us. We're not in nursery school...although with your childish insults, you seem to want to go back there

[COLOR=”green”]Please read your own postings before you accuse anyone else of being childish.[/COLOR

[Punkygirl0101]

What was your point?

[Catmakemebark]

Punky, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[mr gerbil]

"Most of my experiments are cause and effect."

In other words torturing bettas for the perverted idea that you are advancing science.

"If you do a little research, I believe you’ll find that Tank Stunting is caused by enzymes given off by the other fish. – another water quality issue."

Uh-huh...which explains why it occurs with fish on their own? At any rate, my point was to point out that water quality is not the only issue affecting fish.

"Why would anyone want to have a litter of junkyard dogs when for the same costs they could produce registered animal that are in demand?!"

Because they feel they could make money. But, actually, proper breeding will hardly ever make any money. Not when you provide good conditions.

"I’d prefer to discuss proper care for fish rather than your opinion of world government."

You appear to have little experience of debates. I am giving examples, and pointing out issues raised. Those do not have to concern fish directly if they are being said as part of a fish debate.

"I do make a little, and that by definition makes me a pro. "

Breeding bettas is NOT your profession. Amateur breeding and selling is just that.

[phishphreek]

Phishphreek-"I do my best to verify it through experimentation"

mr gerbil-Ah, so you're a vivisectonist as well? That's just the icing on the cake...

Actually my eyes are not that good and my hand is not that steady.
Most of my experiments are cause and effect.

"it's water quality not container size."

LOL! We are obviously unfamiliar with a little thing called TANK STUNTING, not to mention general welfare.

If you do a little research, I believe you’ll find that Tank Stunting is caused by enzymes given off by the other fish. – another water quality issue.

"Partially because they're champions but mostly because there better and they receive better care."

Because their offspring will be worth more money. It's about profit, not care.

Yes, like champion Dogs & Cats, their offspring are more valuable. Why would anyone want to have a litter of junkyard dogs when for the same costs they could produce registered animal that are in demand? But mostly it’s for the recognition - Mine is better than yours!

"No the difference is that we deal in measurable facts and you deal in beliefs"

If the world was run by people like you, dear god no. You show the attitude of the worst kind of Darwinism. You consider nothing unless it's verified by 10 independent researchers and signed by a guy with 2 PhDs.

I’d prefer to discuss proper care for fish rather than your opinion of world government.

"Amn they are extreemly knowledgeable for amatures."

It's spelt amateur. Also, I would refer to you as one as well.

Sorry, I forgot to use the spell checker. While it is true that I don’t make my living from my bettas, I do make a little, and that by definition makes me a pro. I’m satisfied as long as I make enough to pay for my hobby.

Oh, and quit patronising us. We're not in nursery school...although with your childish insults, you seem to want to go back there

Please read your own postings before you accuse anyone else of being childish.

[Punkygirl0101]

I can't even tell what you are saying, and whats a quote..it would help if you used the quote boxes.

[mynoven]

Yes, you certainly make your opinion known and that would be fine if you included IMHO (in my humble oppinion) But you have a tendenancy to state your opinion like it was fact and you had data to back it up. Fish keeping is a science and science requires facts. When you say the minimum size tank for a single male betta is 10g, is that your opinion or have you tried unsuccessfully to keep one in a 9.5 gal tank ?

You must not read...I posted 2 pages of facts.....

When you say the minimum size tank for a single male betta is 10g, is that your opinion or have you tried unsuccessfully to keep one in a 9.5 gal tank ?

I NEVER said 10 gallon was minimum, I said 2,5....you need to read.....

I’m not sure what “this” you want to blame someone for….

Again, you obviously didn't read the whole thing....

Beofre you post, you should read everything....

[mynoven]

OK, so since phishfreak doesn't want to read....here is what I have posted that you didn't seem to think I would back up my posts....I saidthe same thing as you...what isa good debate without facts.....

I never said anything about all IBC, I said that to keep them in jars was cruel...IN MY OPINION!

The other sites I have pulled from....ugg...I will go back to a previous thread where I posted for people that didn't think 2.5 gallons where minimums....

No one stereotyped all of IBC....just the ones that where posting here and some of the info I have gotten was off of the IBC site. If they did, please post proof.

Nobody said they put them in walmart cups...
That was because someone said that breeders are responsible for this and that...so I said...so it is your (refering to breeders) fault that they end up in walmart....read everything please...

Oh I see, You'd like to throw stones at other people but not have them return the stone to you.

I didn't start the stone throwing!! You came here and started, then when we answered you, you threw them back again!! OMG!! Atleast the other people that wondered from where ever, were not as rude as you!

I am lumping together every person in this thread that called breeders/IBC cruel, unknowledgable, selfish, poor fishkeepers, keeping their fish in the bare min. possible. etc..Having a debate about fish feelings or minimum requirements for keeping a certain fish is not what I'm talking about.

I only said that they housing was cruel, and that I PERSONALLY do not agree with breeding...so what was your reason again?!

Its really a shame to see these people be rewarded for their work/time by having unfounded comments posted about them

Again, in my opinion, I do not agree with Breeding!! OK REPHRASE>>>SO MANY BREEDERS!! Please show me unfounded comments, besides the small housing...that's all I was saying was cruel....someone else might have posted something That I missed...

Breeders are a different variety of people....everyone is different and have different opinions. We all know your side, and every other breeder that has come over here, and you all know ours...so this should be done now right?

You guys sure do have a unique way of INFORMING people of your KNOWLEDGE....telling US we are all unknowledgeable and bad fish keepers!! Yes I will find where you said that! (if it was you)

so many people have come on here in the past few days, can't even keep track anymore!!




OK, examples of "your group" giving "bad advice" or stereotyping...(makes as much sense as you saying we stereotyping)



ok...this whole thing is just wrong!! 1qt is mean (IN MY OPINION)

But mainly it is wrong because this person is breeding hundreds of fish a year and keeps them all....one reason I am against breeders, what happens to them? Do they all live in 1 qt containers?

In response to this poster: How dare you come here and not have any HARD PROOF that what you are doing is right either!! Especially if you are keeping the hundreds of fish you breed a year!!



again, an opinion!! If you do not exercise, your muscles become weak, if they do not swim, they become weak....But again...she is refering to a fancy tail....might not be the same? I know my daughters Betta is a good swimmer!

I only go off of what I have experienced from MY BETTA and a couple of my moms Bettas....but the point remains...EVERY BETTA IS DIFFERENT!!!



Yet another OPINION! The "president" even stated that the more water, the less water changes.



Language please!

Here is a member that attacked and is stating an OPINION as a FACT!! (that male bettas are more comfortable in small quarters)

Mine is happy in a 10 gallon!
All Bettas are different!!

I also suggest that this person post links or proof of her statement before attacking :)

what good is a debate without proof? We could throw opinions all day long!!

My fav saying: "OPINIONS ARELIKE A**HOLES, EVERYBODY HAS ONE AND NOBODY CARES" or listens....

Some of my SOURCES:
ok,
Bettas can be quite active and fun fish, if you give them ample room in which to live. Many stores sell BettaHex houses or other tiny bowls for bettas, but this is not the ideal way for bettas to live. Deadly ammonia levels can build up very quickly in such a tiny tank and it would require daily water changes to keep your betta healthy; even if you are wiling to make this commitment, water changes can stress fish greatly and should be done regularly but not excessively. While it is true that some more experienced betta keepers do use smaller containers, this requires much more work on your part and is not advised unless you are prepared to do quite frequent water changes and extensive upkeep procedures.

If you choose to cycle your fish tank (setting up a working filtration system), it is usually recommended to attempt this in a tank that is at least 5 gallons in size. Otherwise it may be hard to achieve stable tank conditions.

Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/page%202-housing.htm

Hidey-Hole: Bettas appreciate having a place where they can hide and feel safe.
Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/pag...ecorations.htm

http://www.firsttankguide.net/betta.php
Keep your Betta in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 5 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to the Betta. This will provide sufficient space for your Betta and will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish.

Hidey-Hole: Bettas appreciate having a place where they can hide and feel safe.
Source:
http://www.healthybetta.com/Care/pag...ecorations.htm

http://www.firsttankguide.net/betta.php
Keep your Betta in a tank of at least 10 gallons, and make sure that a minimum of 5 gallons of your tank space is dedicated to the Betta. This will provide sufficient space for your Betta and will allow the tank to help you keep healthy fish.

http://joshday.com/bettafaq.htm
The bigger the better, as in a larger tank of 2-5 gallons you can add other necessities for them to thrive like filters and heaters. Think long and hard before you buy a permanent home for your betta. Most people say that 2.5 gallons should be the absolute minimum, as bettas can grow to be 5” long!

http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=2340
The best environment for Bettas would include a larger (6 plus gallons) aquarium with a completely functional mechanical and biological filter. A heater, lights, and appropriate substrate and cover for the fish would be added. A well set up community tank with several other compatible species is an ideal environment. If these fish are then fed a suitable meat-based diet and appropriate pelleted food, they can live long, happy, healthy lives.

REFERING TO BREEDERS:
http://www.deepbluebettas.com/BettaCare.shtml#Tankreq
A betta should be kept in no less than a 1 gallon container. Many breeders use Beanie Babie containers or quart mason jars, but these fish also get water changes multiple times a week. The larger the container, the less water changes you have to do, and the happier your betta is.
When you get up into the larger tank sizes, like 10 gallons and up, water changes are greatly reduced.

Here are some other links for tank sizes:

Minimum Tank Size: 3 gallon source:

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/an...s2/p/betta.htm

a minimum tank size of 8 litres (2 US gallons) is recommended, IF it will be kept in a warm room. Some authorites maintain that for a betta to lead a happy life and live the maximum lifespan, as much as 35 litres (10 US gallons) is necessary.[
source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siamese_Fighting_Fish

Veterinary & Aquatic Services Department, Drs. Foster & Smith, Inc.
Minimum Tank Capacity: 10 gallon
source:

http://www.peteducation.com/article....articleid=2200

Aquarium Lore
Minimum Tank Size: 3 gallon source:

http://aquariumlore.blogspot.com/200...ting-fish.html


your attitude is what I was refering too.....telling people they are cruel and inhumane is an opinion....but me specifically, I was refering to jars, and qt's....

and defending your motive in your statement is not what you where doing.....how is "so feel I am qualified to keep fish, if thats ok with all of you..." defending your motive??

[mr gerbil]

"Please read your own postings before you accuse anyone else of being childish."

Thank you, I am aware that I may have gone off the mark on a couple of occasions, but you have consistently been overboard. And you are far too patronising.

[mynoven]

he doesn't read either!!!

"I'm missing the point ? I think the shoe is on the other foot.
We were discussing propper care of bettas. "

This had nothing to do with proper care, this had to do with keeping them, in jars...your statement was ridiculous...and still makes no sense...

Yes, I am a bright girl....that's why I know you are a :troll:
Please read page 32 before you post again ;)

[phishphreek]

your average home can be as much as +/- 20 degrees So how do you suppose someone wishing to keep a few bettas as pets keep their bettas at a stable temp of around 78 degrees?
Buy an A/C unit for the house and a heater for the fish container.

No one in their right mind would keep their home at a constant temp of 78 degrees.
I do I find that my bettas are more willing to spawn at 83

The only reasonable solution to this is a heated tank of at least 2.5 gal, since the smallest heater is made for no less than 2g of water. I am refering to the Hydor mini heater, and as per the instructions it states that it is for use in aquariums 2-5g. Using a heater in a volume of water less than that is very risky, because at the rate it heats the water, it would become too warm before it shuts itself off, causing dangerous fluctuations
I would suggest you buy a medium quality 25w heater with a good thermostat

I'm not going to avocate 10g as the bare minimum for a betta (although it is if you want to keep tankmates), but it is certainly not too large, and suggesting a 10gal as a setup for a betta is not absurd, nor is it some crazy left-wing idea just because it seems too extreme to some people who keep their bettas in quart-sized jars.
I don’t think you can have too big a monitor, too much memory, too much power, or too big an aquarium but don’t forget the word “acclimate”

In fact, I would never advocate a bare tank as a long-term set-up for any fish because of it being way too stressful, so I'm afraid I don't see the point you are trying to make.
Many breeders use bare tanks because they are easier to maintain. When someone says 10g tank many people expect it to be a bare tank. I myself like to add java moss or potted plants because they are easy to remove when I am sterilizing the tank. I also keep my Juvies in a bare tank because as they reach puberty the young males beginning to flare and bite each others fins so they have to be removed and jarred. Once again another word that has different meenings to different people. To most breeders jarring a fish means placing him in an individual container.of any size. And to most hobbiests it meens those little tiney cups that walmart uses.

you'll find so many people keeping them in little goblets on their coffee table, changing their water every few weeks or keeping them in those horrible vases with the peace lilly on top and neglecting to feed them. Funny, b/c not even the IBC advocates that practice, according to their official website.
My local chapter has developed flyers on why this is not a good practice along with information on proper care. We distribute them to local fish stores and the better ones pass them on to the customers, but many like pets-mart just throw them away


I think we are both working toward similar goals.
Unfortunately some people want to use intangable goals. If I could measure happyness then I would attempt to provide it. If I thought putting my bettas in bigger containers would make them better then I would do it. But the people that beat my fishes keep telling me it's because the change the water more often.

[mr gerbil]

Try measuring your own happiness to the nearest decimal place.
Life doesn't work that way.

[mynoven]

ahhh...no comment or apology to me?!

[Punkygirl0101]

http://artpad.art.com/?j5x39x1n9tfs
That is what I think of your fish, Phishfreak..

Change the speed to FAST.

[Catmakemebark]

lol, punky. :p

[nutkyn]

that's very unrealistic, Punky.










bettas only blow bubbles when they happy.;)

[Catmakemebark]

Psh. Whatever.:p Betta's blow big ugly bubbles like that when they are stressed.

[Firewolf]

They are also far apart... sometimes.

[Nell]

Buy an A/C unit for the house and a heater for the fish container.
agreed. My original arguement was to point out that for your average fishkeeper, many of the options for heating water are impractical, and a small heater is the only reasonable way to do it.
I will not tell the majority of people who come here for info on bettas to go out and buy a decent quality 25 watt heater for a 1 gal bowl, though. Will a high quality heater with a very precise thermostat properly heat a 1g bowl?... maybe. But the average person looking for info on bettas is not going to know the difference between a good quality heater and one that is junk, most won't care, and they're probably not going to want to spend $20-$30 on a good one either, so I will stick to my belief that using a heater in a very small volume of water is not a good idea (and far from most manufacterer's reccomendations.)

I don’t think you can have too big a monitor, too much memory, too much power, or too big an aquarium but don’t forget the word “acclimate”.

I will also agree that acclimating the fish properly is an important concern. Bettas that are kept in small containers have not yet developed swimming muscles strong enough to avoid the stress of strong currents or dangerous filter intakes, and precautions need to be taken. This is why I usually reccommend a power filter with an adjustable flow control (such as Aquaclear) or a sponge or UGF for bettas kept alone.

Many breeders use bare tanks because they are easier to maintain. When someone says 10g tank many people expect it to be a bare tank.

I guess this is how you and most of us here are different. No one here would like to see a betta live in a bare 10g tank. Plants and suitable decorations are important.

If I could measure happyness then I would attempt to provide it. If I thought putting my bettas in bigger containers would make them better then I would do it. But the people that beat my fishes keep telling me it's because the change the water more often.

Can I suggest that you at least give it a try? If you don't want to with your prize bettas, then maybe with a few that are not breeding stock? Try setting up a couple of 5 or 10g tanks with a small filter, some gravel or sand, smooth rocks and a decent amount of live or silk plants. Acclimate the bettas properly , and do 25-50% water changes weekly after the tanks have cycled. Hopefully you'll learn something more about your fish, not about health or breeding, but more about personality and happiness. You might then be able to see things better from our point of view, which, I believe, is a step in the right direction for the relationship between breeders and pet owners.

[IH8PETSPEOPLE]

just wondering how many betta owners here are a member of the International Betta Congress (IBC) or have been in the past . If some have never been , why not , and do you think you ever will join. just a few questions , just wondering

NO....I DON'T HATE PET PEOPLE...I JUST USED THIS NAME TO GET YOUR ATTENTION.

HEY Y'ALL!!! ISN'T THE ABOVE QUOTE WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT???? THAT'S HOW IT GOT STARTED!!! A NOTE TO MYNOVEN, PUNKYGIRL0101, FIREWOLF, MR GERBIL, ETC...DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH YOUR TIME THAN TO SIT IN FRONT OF A GLOWING BOX AND WHINE A COMPLAIN AND MAKE ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE MOST LIKELY UNTRUE??? I MEAN, EXACTLY HOW MUCH TIME HAVE YOU ALL SPENT ON THIS THREAD ANYWAY. HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY ANSWERED WHAT THIS PERSON HAS ASKED ANYWAY????

AND THIS PERSON (CINNYANDSIMON) I'M PRETTY SURE IS A GUY, AND NOT A FEMALE LIKE MOST OF YOU HAVE ASSUMED. PAY SOME ATTENTION TO DETAIL PEOPLE!!!
IF YOU WANT TO GO OFF ON TANGENTS, GO START YOUR OWN THREAD.
I ADMIRE THE DEVOTION, CARE AND ATTENTION SOME OF YOU GIVE TO YOUR PETS AND OTHER ANIMALS, BUT HOW ABOUT SHOWING THESE SAME QUALITYS TO THE HUMAN BEINGS AROUND YOU. THIS WORLD WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF YOU TREATED EACH OTHER WITH THE KIND OF LOVE YOU SHOW YOUR PETS. BUT THE COMMENTS AND INFIGHTING I HAVE SEEN HERE ON THIS THREAD (AND I HAVE ONLY SEEN A SMALL PORTION) TELLS ME THAT A FEW OF YOU PEOPLE HAVE LITTLE BENEVOLENCE TO YOUR FELLOW PEOPLE. JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS BEFORE QUALIFYING YOUR ASSUMPTIONS IS MEAN, HURTFULL, SHOWS CONTEMPT, AND LACKS MATURITY.

CHEW ON THIS IDEA FOR A MOMENT: IF THE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD GOT ALONG AND SHOWED LOVE TO ONE ANOTHER, WOULDN'T IT STAND TO REASONS THAT THESE SAME PEOPLE WOULD THEN ALSO TAKE PROPER CARE AND HAVE RESPECT FOR THE PETS AND ANIMALS AROUND THEM? WOULDN'T YOU AGREE THAT ABUSE OF ANIMALS WOULD CEASE?

MY POINT IS, LOVE ONE ANOTHER, EVEN IF YOU THINK THEY DON'T DESERVE IT. DON'T YOU WANT PEOPLE TO LOVE YOU EVEN IF THEY THINK YOU DON'T DESERVE IT??? DONT WAIT FOR THE OTHER PERSON TO MAKE THE FIRST MOVE....YOU MOVE AHEAD AND EXTEND THE PEACE PIPE.

SO IN RESPONSE TO CINNYANDSIMON.....NO, I DON'T BELONG TO THE IBC, I DIDN'T KNOW IT EXISTED, AND I DON'T HAVE ANY CURRENT PLANS TO JOIN IT.
THANKYOU!!!!

[mr gerbil]

"DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH YOUR TIME THAN TO SIT IN FRONT OF A GLOWING BOX AND WHINE A COMPLAIN"

So what are you doing? Idiot.

"YOU PEOPLE HAVE LITTLE BENEVOLENCE TO YOUR FELLOW PEOPLE."

I have benevolence towards all creatures, including my own species. Now who's jumping to conclusions?

"IF THE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD GOT ALONG AND SHOWED LOVE TO ONE ANOTHER, WOULDN'T IT STAND TO REASONS THAT THESE SAME PEOPLE WOULD THEN ALSO TAKE PROPER CARE AND HAVE RESPECT FOR THE PETS AND ANIMALS AROUND THEM?"

Erm...no it wouldn't. Read Genesis.

And for someone who claims maturity, such a immature username is hardly a good start to your post. Not to mention typing in block caps the whole way through ;) .

[Catmakemebark]

The all caps thing is hard to read and give a strong sence of immaturity.

[phishphreek]

http://artpad.art.com/?j5x39x1n9tfs
That is what I think of your fish, Phishfreak..

Change the speed to FAST.

Another fun day in La-La Land. Thank you for the picture but please forgive me if I don't post it on the refrigerator with my granddaughter's

[phishphreek]

Psh. Whatever.:p Betta's blow big ugly bubbles like that when they are stressed.

Since I have never seen my bettas blow any big ugly bubbles, I can only assume that by your defination, none of my bettas in their small containers are stressed .....

[phishphreek]

Try measuring your own happiness to the nearest decimal place.
Life doesn't work that way.

Not hard at all when you work with facts rather than abstract concepts. When you post irrelevent statements my happyness goes down .15

[phishphreek]

ahhh...no comment or apology to me?!

If I've misquoted you or miss understood your statements, I'm sorry.

[phishphreek]

"Most of my experiments are cause and effect."

mr gerbil - In other words torturing bettas for the perverted idea that you are advancing science.

I do not consider changing water parameters, food supply, temperature, lighting or background music torture but it does advance my knowledge of how it affects their health.

"If you do a little research, I believe you’ll find that Tank Stunting is caused by enzymes given off by the other fish. – another water quality issue."

mr gerbil -Uh-huh...which explains why it occurs with fish on their own? At any rate, my point was to point out that water quality is not the only issue affecting fish.

If you would like to the causes of “Tank Stunting”in depth, please let me know and I will review your research facts, water quality data, surface area and partial pressures of atmospheric gases. All of which were developed for fish with gills and not for anabantids.

"Why would anyone want to have a litter of junkyard dogs when for the same costs they could produce registered animal that are in demand?!"

mr gerbil - Because they feel they could make money. But, actually, proper breeding will hardly ever make any money. Not when you provide good conditions.

I disagree; I believe there will always be a market for quality stock. But you do have a good point in that when supply exceeds demand the price paid is sometimes lower that the cost to produce.

"I’d prefer to discuss proper care for fish rather than your opinion of world government."

mr gerbil You appear to have little experience of debates. I am giving examples, and pointing out issues raised. Those do not have to concern fish directly if they are being said as part of a fish debate.

No you are trying to avoid discussing the facts by interjecting irrelevant topics in an attempt to stir up emotions and move the discussion off topic. One of the slimy debate tactics that is not acceptable in polite society.

"I do make a little, and that by definition makes me a pro. "

mr gerbil Breeding bettas is NOT your profession. Amateur breeding and selling is just that.

Call it what you like, I still have a big smile all the way to the bank!

[phishphreek]

I can't even tell what you are saying, and whats a quote..it would help if you used the quote boxes.

Sorry, I'm new on this board and I't missing some features that I'm used to using.

I try to do better

[phishphreek]

[QUOTE=mynoven]When you say the minimum size tank for a single male betta is 10g, is that your opinion or have you tried unsuccessfully to keep one in a 9.5 gal tank ?

I NEVER said 10 gallon was minimum, I said 2,5....you need to read.....[QUOTE]

My mistake, so you have unsuccessfully tried containers of only 1.5g size and you know this to be a fact ?

[phishphreek]

I’m not sure what “this” you want to blame someone for….

Again, you obviously didn't read the whole thing....

Beofre you post, you should read everything....


Thank you for clearing that up. But the fact is, I read your post 3 or 4 times and it still didn't make any sense to me so I asked for your help to understand the issue so we could discuss it reasonably.

[phishphreek]

My dad died 10 years ago.. unless your dad is crazy, and likes to beat up dead people remains.. then let him be my guest ;)

I'm sorry for your loss. That was a poor analogy. Perhaps I should have said " My granddaughter is cuter that yours!"

[phishphreek]

suggesting a 10gal as a setup for a betta is not absurd, nor is it some crazy left-wing idea just because it seems too extreme to some people who keep their bettas in quart-sized jars. ?

I believe Mr. Gerbil is the person who brought up the term “left Wing” in an attempt to move the discussion off tract. My statement was that some of the statements were “out in left field” for example “keeping bettas in jars is cruel!” – I have jars that are 5 gallons,
2 gallons, 1 gallon, etc/ Why is it cruel to keep a betta in a 5g jar? Is it the round corners, the glass material ? And if it is not cruel to keep a betta in a 5g jar, at what size does it become cruel to keep a ½” long young betta ? I sure wouldn’t put him in a community tank with 1.5” fish. He would become fish food while I was watching


and aparently an animal needs to be capable of smiling to show they are happy? You seem to be stuck on this concept since you keep stating it, even though we all know that most animals, and especially fish, are not capable of smiling...
So does that mean that I can't know that my cats are happy because they can't physically smile? Does that mean that my rabbits are only just healthy and that I can't know that they're happy, because they don't smile? Or could it be that I can tell by their actions and don't need to see a smile?

Actually it seems to be the pet owners that are stuck on the word happy, along with other human attributes. We assume a cat is happy when it purrs. We assume a dog is happy when it wags its tail. But I have all these people that think they know when a fish is happy or unhappy. I’ve been trying to find out what they base this knowledge on. I’ve been told that I can tell my fish are happy when they dance, but even when I play classical music, I see no dancing. I’ve been told that fish are happy when they swim, but fish always swim. Maybe these people have ESP and can tell the fish are happy by the waves they are emitting. Sorry, I don’t have ESP. So until someone provides a better way of determining if a fish is happy, I will keep looking for a smile.

[mr gerbil]

"When you post irrelevent statements my happyness goes down .15"

Really, does it now. Mind showing me your research papers? :p

What do you mean by changing water parameters?

"by interjecting irrelevant topics in an attempt to stir up emotions and move the discussion off topic. "

No, I am not. I am using analogies, perhaps you are too emotional and one-tracked to understand this.

"I still have a big smile all the way to the bank!"

Well, congratulations! You've successfully made a profit from immoral gain!
The least you could do would be to directly invest the money, and more besides, in the conservation of wild bettas.

"I believe Mr. Gerbil is the person who brought up the term “left Wing” "

Actually, it was one of your people, who decided to stereotype our points. I don't consider myself to swing to the far-left at all.

ESP...don't make me laugh. I'm a scientist, not a theologist or a fwuffy kitty lover, but I don't happen to view the world in black and white.

Ok, you want to be given some suggestions about fish "happiness"? (note how I put the word in quotation marks).

Firstly, through the laws of natural selection, we can assume that bettas are well suited to their environment.
Consequently, we can also make the assumption that therefore, a betta would be more content in a replication of his/her wild habitat, rather than anything else (this obviously doesn't include things like hostile pathogens and farm labourers taking a dump in the water :rolleyes: ) .

Now, let's look at the betta's natural habitat. Thailand's scenery is not well known for its small jars, and instead you can expect to find things such as the photos displayed on http://www.bettadreams.com/ricepaddies.html . Of course, I wouldn't expect all bettas to be found in something quite like this, but it gives the idea.

So, you take a fish living in what amounts to a small lake (in a top-range scenario) and put him, or his descendants (who will not know the habitat first hand but will be genetically programmed towards it), into a bare 2 gallon jar. Not quite like home, is it?

Now, you could argue that bettas still show signs of happiness in a jar. You say that yours are happy because they blow bubbles...ironically you say this whilst also stating that the only way you could tell that your bettas were happy is if they had a big grin :D on their faces. Contradiction? I think so.

As for how to tell a betta's contentment, you need to examine the behaviour of the fish (as well as physical traits, of course, but that leans towards disease and deformity).

A content fish would be a fish displaying natural traits to the fullest extent possible. This might not include fighting to the death, although it could be argued that including this in your betta's life would provide an ideal sense of fufilment. Having said that, I don't think that I'll be organising a betta fight anytime soon (but think of the financial implications...get a load of punters to place bets on the outcome...

You see, a 10 gallon tank provides a far better simulation of the natural enviroment of a betta than a jar or small "tank". I don't know if you ever used the first version of Microsoft Flight Simulator back in the 80s, but consider that 'simulation' (which included un-textured images of runways being flashed before your eyes) to a modern-day professional flight sim. As with the betta, the 80's version provides a version of reality that might have seemed good at the time, but when you use something from 2006, you realise how bad it really was.

And whilst it could be argued that there's no point in bothering with bigger tanks as most bettas are kept in vases and jars, you have to ask yourself the question: Since when have two wrongs made a right?

[phishphreek]

"When you post irrelevant statements my happiness goes down .15"

mr gerbil - Really, does it now. Mind showing me your research papers? :

I have first hand knowledge of my happiness on a scale of 1 to 10 before & after I read your posts and when I subtract the difference I get a negative number averaging –1.5.
I haven’t been recording them but if you would like a copy please send me you email address.

What do you mean by changing water parameters? :

First I measure the water parameters. There are an assortment of water test kits available for this, perhaps you should purchase one. Then I add an Indian almond leaf to the water and let it soak. After a few days I remove the leaf and retest the water. Then I place the bettas in the water and observe the results.

Well, congratulations! You've successfully made a profit from immoral gain!
The least you could do would be to directly invest the money, and more besides, in the conservation of wild bettas. :

First of all, I’m not sure where you get your values of moral and immoral but they are not mine. And I don’t want to discuss your strange moral values. Secondly I don’t want any invesment suggestions from a forigner. And for your information, I support the conservation of wild bettas by raising & distributing wild bettas through the IBC species maintaince program

"I believe Mr. Gerbil is the person who brought up the term “left Wing” "

mr gerbil - Actually, it was one of your people, who decided to stereotype our points. I don't consider myself to swing to the far-left at all. .

Are we a right wing bigot then?

It's not far left. If anything it's centre-left. Appreciation and acceptance of other creatures is no longer consigned to the middle stages of an lsd trip.

Copied from page 10



Firstly, through the laws of natural selection, we can assume that bettas are well suited to their environment. .

To assume is not factual
The common pet store betta has no native environment. It is a crossbreed between 3 or more species of bettas that has been selectively breed in captivity for over a hundred years.

Consequently, we can also make the assumption that therefore, a betta would be more content in a replication of his/her wild habitat, rather than anything else (this obviously doesn't include things like hostile pathogens and farm labourers taking a dump in the water :rolleyes: ) . .

Rather like saying a Dairy Cow would be more content in the jungle.

Now, you could argue that bettas still show signs of happiness in a jar. You say that yours are happy because they blow bubbles...ironically you say this whilst also stating that the only way you could tell that your bettas were happy is if they had a big grin :D on their faces. Contradiction? I think so. .

No, I have never stated that there was any way a betta showed happiness. When bubbles were offered to me as a way that bettas showed happness, I commented that by the bubble standard mine must be happy even though they are in jars. Also I believe if bettas could show happiness then mine would have a big grin.

As for how to tell a betta's contentment, you need to examine the behaviour of the fish (as well as physical traits, of course, but that leans towards disease and deformity). .

That is what most of this discussion is about. I attribute behavior & physical traits to good health not to happiness. I have been unable to identify any traits that can be positively linked to happiness and therefore having a happy or unhappy fish is not a fact, it is an opinion.

You see, a 10 gallon tank provides a far better simulation of the natural enviroment of a betta than a jar or small "tank". .

There is no natural environment of a pet store betta. It is a hybred of many different wild bettas from different environments with different genetics that have been selectively bred into longfinned colorful eyecandy.

And whilst it could be argued that there's no point in bothering with bigger tanks as most bettas are kept in vases and jars, you have to ask yourself the question: Since when have two wrongs made a right?

Let me state one more time, the size of the container is not a key factor in the health and condition of a betta. The important factor is water quality. Putting a betta in a filthy 10g tank is no better than keeping him in a smaller container with constant water changes.

[mynoven]

[QUOTE=mynoven]When you say the minimum size tank for a single male betta is 10g, is that your opinion or have you tried unsuccessfully to keep one in a 9.5 gal tank ?

I NEVER said 10 gallon was minimum, I said 2,5....you need to read.....[QUOTE]

My mistake, so you have unsuccessfully tried containers of only 1.5g size and you know this to be a fact ?

I was just correcting your statement that I said 10 gallons was minimum....I have posted many many many links that also state that 2.5 is minimum...that was all my point was.

Thank you for clearing that up. But the fact is, I read your post 3 or 4 times and it still didn't make any sense to me so I asked for your help to understand the issue so we could discuss it reasonably.

OK, you..or someone posted this:
Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a wharehouse of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in verry small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins untill in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies.

Then, same person posted this:
After all, if it were not for breeders there would be no pets in the LFS. If it were not for livestock shows, there would be very little improvement in the stock available breeders and Ultimately consumers.

Then I posted This:
according to your statement above there....this means we can blame you (Breeders, not YOU directly) for this:

The this is:
Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a wharehouse of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in verry small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins untill in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies.

Does that clarify?

[Catmakemebark]

Just because an animal is born in captivity does not mean it is able to live in what ever condition we throw at it. Stop comparing with a pet shop. Pet shops dont damn about there fish. They want you to take the fish home and then create its natural environment. They arnt going to make it for you. You cant keep an pet in the container it was given to you in.

I would think a dairy cow would be more content in a jungle considering they are kept hooked up to machines twenty-four/seven with there babies food getting suck out of them.

[mynoven]

A NOTE TO MYNOVEN, PUNKYGIRL0101, FIREWOLF, MR GERBIL, ETC...DON'T YOU HAVE SOMETHING BETTER TO DO WITH YOUR TIME THAN TO SIT IN FRONT OF A GLOWING BOX AND WHINE A COMPLAIN AND MAKE ASSUMPTIONS THAT ARE MOST LIKELY UNTRUE??? I MEAN, EXACTLY HOW MUCH TIME HAVE YOU ALL SPENT ON THIS THREAD ANYWAY. HAVE ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY ANSWERED WHAT THIS PERSON HAS ASKED ANYWAY????

PAY SOME ATTENTION TO DETAIL PEOPLE!!!

THIS WORLD WOULD BE A MUCH BETTER PLACE IF YOU TREATED EACH OTHER WITH THE KIND OF LOVE YOU SHOW YOUR PETS. BUT THE COMMENTS AND INFIGHTING I HAVE SEEN HERE ON THIS THREAD (AND I HAVE ONLY SEEN A SMALL PORTION) TELLS ME THAT A FEW OF YOU PEOPLE HAVE LITTLE BENEVOLENCE TO YOUR FELLOW PEOPLE.


OK, first off: no one is making assumptions, we are all going off what we have learned from the internet and other people.....oh, and I have lots of time because I work and have a puter, then I have a computer ay home, so on my days off, I try to piss people off intentionally :rolleyes: (ya, I hope you know what sarcasm is)

Second: Most likely untrue? Unless the internet lies!

Third: It's called Debate, not fighting...you should take your own advice and pay attention!

Fourth: If you haven't read it all, you shouldn't be making comments :)

5. We like other people....some of these other people are the ones saying some rude stuff...you need to read before posting ;)

[Catmakemebark]

Nikki, your getting good at this debating thing, too good for people to even recognized its even debating apparently...:D

[mynoven]

I like debates, and now that I know what I am talking about, I can debate.....

That's why I sat back before, but after researching and being on here forever, I think I can throw my 2 sense in!!

Besides...I was targeted specifically....I can't let someone attack me and then not say anything!! :p

[mr gerbil]

"There are an assortment of water test kits available for this, perhaps you should purchase one."

But...what's a test kit? Is it like the one that the Power Rangers use when they're testing for the superbomb?

Perhaps we could debate this more sensibly if you realise that I actually know about fish care.

I said: "It's not far left. If anything it's centre-left." I will also quote you, before my post, as saying: "Well, someone pointed out how far out in left field some of the "help" answers were" .

"The common pet store betta has no native environment."

Pray forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't betta splendens also found in the wild? And, hybrids aside, what about wild-caught bettas? Are they meant to adjust to life in a jar?

Even hybrids that have been in captivity for a long time will be adapted for the surroundings of a rice paddy.

"I attribute behavior & physical traits to good health"

Yes. And mental depression is not part of good health.

"Putting a betta in a filthy 10g tank is no better than keeping him in a smaller container with constant water changes."

Whoever mentioned a dirty tank? At any rate, a beginner is NOT going to be able to clean a tank every couple of days and test water conditions at the same time.


This thread is going nowhere due to your inability to appreciate alternate opinions.
My only comfort comes in the knowledge that those beliefs are dying out with their carriers. Welcome to a new century.

Oh, and your foreigner comment...ROFL. Do we also have the Stars and Stripes outside our door and a small arsenal of guns?
I refuse to attempt any more debate with an individual who will not or can not consider other people's opinions.

I will, however, make a statement to the affect of warning people to stay away from old-fashioned views such as have been observed on these pages. More and more, research is proving that fish have basic emotions. Some people refuse to accept this, and the joke's on them. But it's not on the fish that they inprison.

[Catmakemebark]

Lol, good point. I'm just sitting back and letting you do the arguing for me (you always post before I can say anything :p)...although I may have been the one to start this debate.

(directed at nikki)

[mynoven]

lol cat, you did start it!! It's all your fault!! HAHAHAHA....sorry, couldn't resist!! :p

This thread is going nowhere due to your inability to appreciate alternate opinions.

MG: Ya, I agree...no one seems to understand that :)

OK, I have to run to pet store!! I will be back!! ;)

[Catmakemebark]

Buh-bye, nikki!:sly:

[phishphreek]

....I have posted many many many links that also state that 2.5 is minimum...that was all my point was.

Well, I’m glad that a lot of people have the opinion that 2.5g should be the minimum. But the fact remains that 2.5 is not the minimum, it is a recommended minimum. It is an opinion, not a fact and a large number of people successfully use one gallon containers.

according to your statement below....this means we can blame you (Breeders, not YOU directly) for this:

The this is:
Pet Store bettas are hatched in soft acid water in a concrete bowl (no plants and decorations) as soon as they are identified as a male they are moved into a 1/2 pint whisky bottle in a wharehouse of thousands of 1/2 pint flasks. When they mature they are shipped in verry small containers to the US. Here the water is dumped because it is a source of hazardous waste and the bettas are repacked in hard water with high pH and shipped to the wholesaler who repacks them and ships them to the retailer who doesn't have enough sence to change the water but will continue to feed him until the water is so poluted that it kills the betta. If the betta is lucky some would be pet owner will buy him before he dies and take him home to a comunity tank with a tank bully that constantly nips on the bettas fins untill in his weakened condition he develops a fungus or an infection and dies.

Mynoven - Does that clarify?

Yes, thank you – yes you should blame Asian breeders for their practices and blame importers for their practices, and blame wholesalers for their practices and large chain retail outlets with minimum wage employees for their practices.

[phishphreek]

Just because an animal is born in captivity does not mean it is able to live in what ever condition we throw at it.

And just because it came out of a swamp does not mean that a swamp is the best place for it.

I would think a dairy cow would be more content in a jungle considering they are kept hooked up to machines twenty-four/seven with there babies food getting suck out of them.

Well you would be wrong about that also

[Catmakemebark]

"And just because it came out of a swamp does not mean that a swamp is the best place for it."
If it was aclimated to live in a swamp the YES a swamp is best. If mother nature wanted it there then thats were it should go.

"Well you would be wrong about that also"

Ya wana bet.

[phishphreek]

"And just because it came out of a swamp does not mean that a swamp is the best place for it."
Catmakemebark-If it was aclimated to live in a swamp the YES a swamp is best. If mother nature wanted it there then thats were it should go..
A. Pet store Bettas didn't come out of a comunity tank
B. Petstore Bettas didn't are not aclimated to live in a comunity tank.
C. I have received no notice from Mother Nature as to where see would want me to keep bettas, please send me a copy of your instructions.

Ya wana bet.

Actually milk cows produce much more milk than a single calf could drink. Therefore the excess milk if not removed would build up pressure, pain and untimately mastitus. Not good for the cow.....
And you loose everything you bet.

[mr gerbil]

"B. Petstore Bettas didn't are not aclimated to live in a comunity tank."

Screw it, I'm going to chip in once more.

I have never seen a betta for sale in a cup, etc. They have ALWAYS been in a community tank.

I guess that's because the UK has better animal welfare laws, but, as foreigners, we're obviously wrong, right?

[mynoven]

Actually milk cows produce much more milk than a single calf could drink. Therefore the excess milk if not removed would build up pressure, pain and untimately mastitus. Not good for the cow.....
And you loose everything you bet.

This had nothing to do with what she said....she said it would be better than being hooked to machines :rolleyes:

[mynoven]

Well, I’m glad that a lot of people have the opinion that 2.5g should be the minimum. But the fact remains that 2.5 is not the minimum, it is a recommended minimum. It is an opinion, not a fact and a large number of people successfully use one gallon containers.

Wikepedia and other "experts" are opinions? (read the links I posted)
So then in that case...it is your opinion that they are better off in small containers! Show me Proof! I have posted proof! where's yours?

C. I have received no notice from Mother Nature as to where see would want me to keep bettas, please send me a copy of your instructions.

That is a ridiculous remark...Mother nature put bettas in the wild in japan! There's your notice, straight from mother nature to me, to you ;)

[nutkyn]

I don't think there are any betta splendens in the wild at all. I believe there used to be, but they aren't there any more... i'll have to check on that.

[mynoven]

I was referring to bettas in general....she/he didn't specify splendens....:)

[nutkyn]

no, i know you didn't, MG did, i just didn't quote him. I haven't eaten yet today and my thoughts are a bit foggy.:boggled:

[mr gerbil]

I think there are...but I'll double check ;) .

[mynoven]

Yes there are wild splendens!!

In the wild, the fish uses its coloration to ward off predators and to attract mates. Wild Bettas do not possess the vibrant bright red, lime green, and royal blue colors of their selectively bred counterparts. In fact, they are unusually dull and drab.

Oh, and I guess it is Thailand, not Japan: (I swear I saw Japan somewhere)

The wild Siamese Fighting fish can be found swimming amongst the inland waters of the Orient. It is native to Thailand,

[mynoven]

I found that from here:
http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Betta_splendens.html

[IH8PETSPEOPLE]

Good day all!
Let me start off by agreeing that my name choice was in poor taste. If you met me in person you would soon realise that I have a toungue-in-cheek sense of humour, and I meant my name to be humourous not offensive....my bad!
I also appologize for my use of CAPITAL letters the whole way through. It was nasty wasn't it?..sorry.

Good on ya mr. gerbil for pointing out the glowing box comment....I wondered if anyone would pick up on that. I take no offense at your "idiot" comment.

Debating....Hmmmm.....Not sure about that one. I always view forums as something to be used to share facts and give information (I know, thats not what I did last night, or right now). I suppose the subject matter in a pet forum is debateable since everyone carries their own opinion on how creatures should be treated. I guess I was taken aback at how this thread had taken on a life of it's own, so to speak.

Back to mr. gerbil. I am interested in your comment about Genesis. What are you trying to say exactly? I had Genesis in mind when I wrote that comment. Could you please clarify for me?
Thankyou!!!

[mynoven]

Good on ya mr. gerbil for pointing out the glowing box comment....I wondered if anyone would pick up on that

I did too....that was not a good start...you should read this entire thread before posting stuff like that....this forum is good for debates....especially when newbies come in attacking us....

[Pepperland]

I like the sudden change of maturity.:)

Damn, this is catmakemebark...yes, I forgot to log my sister out, again...

[mr gerbil]

I mentioned Genesis because *searches for Bible*...

I quote: And God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the wild animals of the earth, and over every living thing that creeps upon the earth."

Now, that statement has brought into the Christian ethos the idea of dominion over other species. (However, I'm not limiting this to Christians, merely using Genesis as an example).

There is a universal belief that humans are special. Even if animals are made through the same processes as us, they are still inferior due to our so-called 'higher conciousness'.

My point, consequently, was that even if humans made world peace and cherished one and all...animals would still be noted as inferior, servants of mankind. The meat trade would continue.

It could be argued that if civilisations were intelligent enough to put their differences behind them, they would also be moral enough to view animals on a much more equal footing.
However, I feel that if this ever came, it would be some time after the decleration of world peace. It would be the natural advancement of those ideas.

[honeythorn]

I was wondering something. Why is it that apparantly bettas are the only types of anabantid we ever hear of being kept in tiny tanks/containers? Since all anabantids have a labyrinth organ ( or so I have read in every book and website I have ever seen) and therefore the capacity to breathe atmospheric air, why is it that people aren't keeping smaller species of gourami in ridiculous containers?

Why is it that bettas must endure this kind of confinement and not other fish?

Obviously I am not saying that gouramis or any other kind of fish should be kept in such cramped conditions, of course not, but I simply wondered why it's only bettas that are kept in this way.

as someone pointed out, bettas as we see them in petshops/fish stores and aquatic centres, are bred to be that way. The wild betta doesn't look like that. Yes, the wild betta can survive in a small pool of water by using it's labyrinth organ ( remember all anabantids have them), but the domestic/line bred betta has never had to endure the process of a dry season in a rice paddy. so exactly why are they kept in such small containers? just because they have a labyrinth organ? doesn't make sense to me.

[Catmakemebark]

Good point honey!

[mynoven]

ok, so where did they go?

[UKCityKitty]

hi I have just spent a loooooong time reading through this thread

I have three Bettas at the moment, two in quarentine and one I've had for several months.
I think I am lucky in my LFS's, one has them in mixed tanks... generally half grown sword or platy fry (too big to eat/too small to even try hurt the Bettas) or on their own in 2 ft tanks, the other uses the little bowls but the water quality is excellent and the fish are healthy, if they had the space they would be in the larger tanks.

I would love to house my bettas in their natural environments except for two things, one lack of space, two their long fins would snag too much in the 'right' plants.

My eldest fish is in a 5 gallon, he hated his 10 gallon. He was from the LFS that gave them 2ft (10 gal) tanks but in my 10 gal on his own he slumped in corner and was pale, listless and sickly. He had loads of hidets/planting etc but he wouldn't leave his corner.
In his 5 gal he is bright and active, has a huge bubblenest and is feisty, attacks his food with vigor

my other two are currently in 3 gallon tanks for quarentine before sharing a divided 10 gallon tank (obv opaque divider) though they will be separated if they do not thrive

we are not fish, we do not have any idea of how they see life yet we force them to be what they are, changing them to suit us... I see that as a reason to make them as comfortable as possible which we can only guess at through their behavior and colour

and all this bickering really hasn't resolved much but has been very informative

;)

[mynoven]

lol, bickering.....DEBATE! ok, I guess it is a one sided debate because the invaders do not listen and are stuck in their ways....although I personally (and others) have posted links and other things backing our side up....they have not.....:rolleyes1

But at any rate, I am glad you found some good info!!

I am also glad you do not keep them in a qt of water..;)

Welcome to petshub by the way!! :p

[UKCityKitty]

I have seen them in jars at breeders... but generally only as temporary measure such as treatment, transport or introducing the female to male with no-one getting injured.

I love my fishy babies and will do my best but on other hand I'm not going to spend all my money and time on them

thanks for the welcome btw