No Responsible Breeder SELLS to Pet Shops

[Pit Bull]

No responsible breeder sells their cats or dogs to a pet store..I believe this actually goes for most small animal breeders as well.

How could you call someone responsible that doesn't have a spay/neuter contract for their puppies/kittens and doesnt' know where they will end up in the future?

There's also no health guarantee/temperament testing. How is that responsible?

No responsible breeder breeds mixed breed dogs...there is an overbundance of dogs worldwide, why would anyone who gives a penny do this?

I would like everyone's comments and opinions on this. I was actually surprised to see a pet shop section on this forum. Most forums I go to absolutely dispise pet stores that sell live animals, ESPECIALLY dogs and cats..well, because we know where most of them come from....if not a puppy mill, then definately from a backyard breeder.

[PrismWolf]

You absolutely have my 100% agreement. I'm an officer of our local humane society and have come across several backyard breeders who...not only sell to pet stores...but to the general public. One pit bull breeder had 30 dogs confiscated...none survived from the constant breeding of dogs who were genetically passing their demodectic mange genes through to the next litter. I held the last survivor in my arms as she was gently euthanized. These are unscrupulous people who don't care how they get their money. They're greedy and push volume rather than health and temperament. This goes for all breeds and species.

Pet stores should be held to the same regulations that shelters and animal rescue orgs. are bound to with contracts of spays and neuters for very young dogs with a mandatory deposit that will be returned once proof is obtained...and those that are old enough to be spayed/neutered already.

They should also be held accountable for purchasing their animals from puppy mills/backyard breeders who keep deplorable conditions for the animals in their care. This way they will be forced to choose the best breeders...and those same breeders will be forced to better care for the animals...or be put out of business. The latter option is my first choice.

[daddysgurl9245]

I agree too. Any person who buys a dog or cat from a pet store is completely stupid. Even if they think "Oh, I'll give him a good home, I'm saving a puppy mill dog!", they're still supporting the irresponsible breeder who sold them to the pet store, therefore NOT helping the problem at all! I think that the only way some one should be able to get a dog or a cat, is from a shelter or if necessary, from a breeder who has healthy great, looking dogs, has all the right "papers", and has a good reason for breeding. We went into a mom and pop store once and they had five puppies, three "cages". The cages were GLASS with wood over the top. It was horrible. The poor things look pitiful. You could tell they definately had worms. It was very sad. If we ever get another dog or cat, it will be from a shelter. People are VERY stupid soemtimes...

[Pippin]

I refuse to buy so much as a can of fish food from any store that sells puppies.

[Jennicat]

Agreed. I don't shop at pet stores that sell small animals. Petsmart and Petco are jacking up the small animal population here, they're in shelters and rescues like crazy, and they don't donate one red cent to help cover their irresponsibility.

[ylrebmik]

I went to petco and i was so furious. under each and every animal read " consider adoption first"

if you SERIOUSLY thought that... why not have ALL your animals from a shelter instead of some from mills and crap. I was so mad... all those cages were so fricken small and so many of the little critters looked sick. Not only do they have sick animals, promote shelters while selling with mills, their prices are 3 times as much as anywhere else..literally. The only thing i think is cool is that you can bring your pet there..other than that..they are awful. 5 months ago... they didn't even know what kind of turtles they had... pathedic.

[tvrodents]

i agree with you regarding cats and dogs but what is wrong with selling small animals to pet shops that you know and trust and work for? why is it terrible for a small scale breeder to sell high quality animals to pet shop rather than the shop buy in from a large scale stockist of small rodents and rabbits?
slightly off topic but i noticed that a couple of people have mentioned pit bulls in thier signatures.. im just extremely curious as i have never seen one what with them being illegal in the UK

Kat

[Jennicat]

Because a responsible breeder takes responsibility for where their animals go. Pet stores do not screen homes. They don't do vet checks. They don't make sure that people know about proper care. They don't take the animal back if the person is going to dump it and rehome it with another family.

A signature and the correct amount of money can make sure you take home any animal you want, as long as you don't outright tell them you're going to kill it. Some of our worst rescue abuse cases are not from malicious people who are trying to hurt animals, but from ignorant pet owners who got their animals without doing any research.

[ylrebmik]

yeah and a lot of small animals need just as much care and knowledge for their kind. A lot of people just don't realize it.

[Pippin]

slightly off topic but i noticed that a couple of people have mentioned pit bulls in thier signatures.. im just extremely curious as i have never seen one what with them being illegal in the UK

What would you like to know about them? Aren't Staffordshire Bull Terriers legal in the UK? They fall under the "pit bull" catergory. Send me an e-mail if you like, or we could IM.

[daddysgurl9245]

I don't know what pet stores are like in the UK, but they're (most of them) horrible in the US. Any breeder who sells animals to a petshop is C-R-A-Z-Y!!!!!

[ylrebmik]

Yup. We need some GOOD pet stores in the usa. That is why i am thinking about opening a good one when i am older.

[Moosley]

No Responsible Breeder SELLS to Pet Shops ... *unless* they would rather the public were given the chance to buy a healthy animal. If you don't care what the public get to buy then... sure yeah.

;)

But again, I am in the UK. Generally hate petshops, SERIOUSLY hate chainstores like Pets@Home (i believe it is PetSmart in the USA as it used to be here). BUT there *are* good petshops here, you can't expect pet shops to sell healthy 'good quality' animals unless they have a *good* breeder supplying them.

And I know, i know, ideally pet shops wouldn't sell animals... but you see how many people buy their pets from the shops! It just isn't something that is going to change in a hurry so wouldnt you rather a good breeder supplied the pet shop rather than a farm? If decent breeders supplied pet shops then the 'mills' and 'farms' would go out of business!! And the general stock accross the country will be better quality. And when some idiot decides to breed the pets (simply because the human race *is* full of idiots and it is still illegal to put them out of our misery!) then the outcome shouldn't be so devastating as breeding two really 'poor quality' animals together.

I'm sure you get my gist :)

EDIT: Although i have only just found out that it is actually legal to sell cats and dogs in petshops here in the UK, i didnt actually think it was!

Despite it being legal, it just isn't the done thing and i have never heard of cats or dogs being sold in a pet shop in the UK. I think its one thing selling 'small furries' in a pet shop however i detest the thought of buying or selling cats in a pet shop! (don't ask me about logic! i dont have much)

[mynoven]

Yup. We need some GOOD pet stores in the usa. That is why i am thinking about opening a good one when i am older.

petshub people get nice discounts right? ;)

hehehe :p

[ylrebmik]

If i do it... yes lol.

[Jennicat]

... *unless* they would rather the public were given the chance to buy a healthy animal. If you don't care what the public get to buy then... sure yeah.

;)

But again, I am in the UK. Generally hate petshops, SERIOUSLY hate chainstores like Pets@Home (i believe it is PetSmart in the USA as it used to be here). BUT there *are* good petshops here, you can't expect pet shops to sell healthy 'good quality' animals unless they have a *good* breeder supplying them.

And I know, i know, ideally pet shops wouldn't sell animals... but you see how many people buy their pets from the shops! It just isn't something that is going to change in a hurry so wouldnt you rather a good breeder supplied the pet shop rather than a farm? If decent breeders supplied pet shops then the 'mills' and 'farms' would go out of business!! And the general stock accross the country will be better quality. And when some idiot decides to breed the pets (simply because the human race *is* full of idiots and it is still illegal to put them out of our misery!) then the outcome shouldn't be so devastating as breeding two really 'poor quality' animals together.

I'm sure you get my gist :)

EDIT: Although i have only just found out that it is actually legal to sell cats and dogs in petshops here in the UK, i didnt actually think it was!

Despite it being legal, it just isn't the done thing and i have never heard of cats or dogs being sold in a pet shop in the UK. I think its one thing selling 'small furries' in a pet shop however i detest the thought of buying or selling cats in a pet shop! (don't ask me about logic! i dont have much)



I think that good breeders would RATHER they could screen homes for their animals and ensure that good families are getting them, not just any yahoo with $10.

Ideally, pet stores would stop selling animals, and the only avenue for getting animals would be responsible breeders, rescues, and shelters.

[tvrodents]

i am a breeder and i do sell to a couple of select pet shops. if you know the manager and trust the staff to do the same good job as you yoursself as the breeder would i think that selling to pet shops is fine.. if however you just throw animals at the highest bidder.. well... you shouldnt be breeding.

Kat

[tvrodents]

i am a breeder and i do sell to a couple of select pet shops. if you know the manager and trust the staff to do the same good job as you yoursself as the breeder would i think that selling to pet shops is fine.. if however you just throw animals at the highest bidder.. well... you shouldnt be breeding.



Kat

[Jennicat]

i am a breeder and i do sell to a couple of select pet shops. if you know the manager and trust the staff to do the same good job as you yoursself as the breeder would i think that selling to pet shops is fine.. if however you just throw animals at the highest bidder.. well... you shouldnt be breeding.

Kat

I personally don't think that a pet shop will ever do as good a job as a very responsible breeder. I have never seen a pet shop that does apartment/home checks, gets landlord approval, does a vet check, and do a history of owning pets. And yet, personally, I believe that if you're going to be a responsible breeder, these things have to be done. They just can't afford to do all that for an animal that's probably only making them $5.

[daddysgurl9245]

Ok, to what Moosley said. If you're a good breeder and you sell to petshops, HOW do you know that your perfectly healthy animals aren't going to go to some 8 year old little kid who's going to feed it colorful food and stick it in a too small cage and not ever play with it? You don't. Well, that is unless the breeder who sold to the petshop asked for the adopter's info, but I doubt that would ever happen.

[tvrodents]

the pet shops have the same rigorous vetting process that i have. they wont sell to an eight year old with out parental consent any way (this is illegal according to UK legislation)
the dont sell bad food.
they dont sell bad cages
they dont sell saw dust of fluffy bedding
and are would call any breeder of hamsters and similar a liar if they said that they did home checks for every person they sold to. it isnt needed. if you have seen the cage that the animal is going to live in and you have met the person... what has the size of thier home got to do with it?

Kat

[Rachy1412]

I have a local petshop that sells Kittens, it's not illegal just frowned apon. Not sure if they still do though, I haven't been there in a long while. They keep rabbits and guinea pigs together in tanks. Another petshop keeps them together in wire cages, both are crap. Pets at home are better but still keep guinea pigs with rabbits in small cages. I am pleased to see though that they are selling a cage big enough to house two piggies, just.

If you sell to a petshop you won't know where they will eventually end up, it's irresponsible. If you don't have homes lined up before you breed then don't bother.

[tvrodents]

you still dont listen do you.

the pet shops have the same rigorous vetting process that i have. they wont sell to an eight year old with out parental consent any way (this is illegal according to UK legislation)
the dont sell bad food.
they dont sell bad cages
they dont sell saw dust of fluffy bedding
and are would call any breeder of hamsters and similar a liar if they said that they did home checks for every person they sold to. it isnt needed. if you have seen the cage that the animal is going to live in and you have met the person... what has the size of thier home got to do with it?

read it.

this is not the same as a pet shop that sells dogs and cats.
one of my pet shops will only sell rabbits and guinea pigs if the new owner buys then run from them or comes in with a picture of what they are going to be housed in. this is a good pet shop. the other doesnt sell gp's or rabbits at all. this IS responsible.

all my animals do have homes ready for them.. occasionally a pet shop will order a litter. as i have already state a million times, these are good pet shops and i trust them... and yes, i know the pet shop licence legislation becuase i am in the process of applying for one myself.

Kat

[Jennicat]

Unless you go to their home, how do you know how many other animals they have? How do you know that they aren't buying the hamster to feed to their snakes? For all you know, once you see the cage, they could take it home and stack it up on top of another 50 cages full of animals. I don't think any reasonable breeder would consider that an optimal situation for their animals.

Most people that want to adopt or buy animals are not bad people, but some of them may have problems like hoarding that you simply can't see just by looking at the cage that the animal is going in.

[tvrodents]

thats fair comment. generally hamsters dont get used as feeders in this country. normally if some one does feed thier own animals they will buy a breeding pair and then only feed the babies. in the UK its illegal and frowned upon to feed live, plus there's the risk of your snake getting bitten etc

im not trying to win this arguement, i just want you all to under stand that there are some pet shops out there making a supreme effort.

i dont dissagree with what you are saying, i have no doubt that without carefull vetting this sort of thing does happen.

Kat

[Jennicat]

thats fair comment. generally hamsters dont get used as feeders in this country. normally if some one does feed thier own animals they will buy a breeding pair and then only feed the babies. in the UK its illegal and frowned upon to feed live, plus there's the risk of your snake getting bitten etc

im not trying to win this arguement, i just want you all to under stand that there are some pet shops out there making a supreme effort.

i dont dissagree with what you are saying, i have no doubt that without carefull vetting this sort of thing does happen.

Kat


It's not especially common here, either (although live feeding is not looked down upon quite as much), but odd people tend to gravitate towards animals at times. We generally don't state "we're doing a home check", but simply tell them that we're dropping off the animal and some starter supplies so we can say goodbye. That way we don't seem so intrusive, but we can still get a good look at their house.

[tvrodents]

thats a very good way of doing it!
i have delivered animals if they are staying in the area but as i dont drive (i had to sell my car) its not always an option for me.
as soon as i drive i will be offering a delivery service.
i think that its a very good idea!

Kat

[daddysgurl9245]

they wont sell to an eight year old with out parental consent any way (this is illegal according to UK legislation)
Of COURSE they wouldn't sell to an eight year old without parent consent, BUT do you know HOW they are going to treat the animal? The parent might care less about what happens to the animal, they could've just bought the kid the rodent to make them shut up about wanting one so bad. Ya never know...

the dont sell bad food.
they dont sell bad cages
they dont sell saw dust of fluffy bedding
So? It doesn't matter if they don't sell it, but others DO. None guarantees that they will shop at that same pet store. They could go to another and buy all that bad stuff.

if you have seen the cage that the animal is going to live in and you have met the person... what has the size of thier home got to do with it?

Kat

Meeting the person and seeing the animal's cage has absolutely nothing to do with it. They may act differently around you so that you think they are good enough, but may be totally different with the animal. And the cage size DOES matter. There are times when people aren't able to take the animal out of the cage and it would get very bored easily. Not to fun, 'eh?

[tvrodents]

no.. the size of thier house.. not the animals cage...

basically what you guys are saying is that all pet shops are terrible. im going to re-itterate again that the pet shop asks every thing id ask and make it clear that such bad products as fluffy bedding etc are a bit no no

i feel about a couple of the more local rescue centres in a similar way to that which you feel about pet shops. they dont always give out adequate advise and after care is non existant.
the stories iv heard are shoking.. people takeing large dogs with out having a home check by the centre, people taking on dogs that have had no vaccinations etc. Not all rescues are saintly places.

Kat

[Jennicat]

Not all rescues are saintly places. I've worked with some that I would never adopt from, that's true.

I also don't feel like all pet shops are bad, however, I feel like selling animals is not prudent for pet shops. They simply don't have the resources of a good rescue to sit and call vets, and call landlords, etc.

[Rachy1412]

Unless the petshop does homechecks before and after the animal is brought then I don't think it is good enough for you to sell animals to it.

[daddysgurl9245]

I don't think that all pet stores are bad. I consider a good pet store a store that doesn't sell animals and only sells good products and has knowledgable employees. And not all shelters are good either. There are some that could care less about the dogs or cats and are only doing it for money. Sometimes they just sit in the cages and eat horrible food with barely any human interaction at all.

[tvrodents]

i am a responsible breeder and i sell to pet shops on occasion so it isnt always the case. simple as. whether you agree with me or not that is the case in *my* local area.

Kat

[ylrebmik]

see the thing that they are trying to tell you is that it is only part of how you treat them when you have the dogs... but mostly everyone on here feels you are a not a responsible breeder until you carefully pick homes for your pets and do checks on them. When you sell to a pet store... that is irrisponsible because you never know where they will end up...thereefore you are not accomplishing the goal of responsible breeders. Responisble breeds have waiting lists for good homes to go on too. I really don't care what "local area" you are in... bad breeding is bad breeding. A responsible breeder should be able to tell me every animal they have ever sold, to who, when, and a lot more. (even if they have to look in their records) You are just one of those people that sell to stores and think you are a good breeder.. just like a 6 year old thinks they are amazing pet owners.

[tvrodents]

i have bloodlines and records for everything/ i told you in another post that 90% or more of my animals go direct to thier new homes via myself and that the shops only get them if they are pre-ordered for a reason. you lot are really coming across as a small group of children who enjoy nothing more than preaching to people about how rubbish they are. i AM a responsible breeder, i have been breeding for 11 years and am no six your old (id much rather be kid again believe me!)
so according to you you know enough about me and my animals to think that i am 'just another tin pot breeder'
go on my website and take a look at it. its still under construction but it will show you how serious i take my animals.
this is where the line between pet owners and proffessional keepers lies. you lot are the little pet owners who get up on your soap box at every possible opportunity to tell us breeders (and im not backing up the crap ones, the children that breed or any one not worth thier salt here, just the pro keepers) how terrible we are for breeding DECENT animals for people like you to own as a pet. your all deluded into thinking that you can continue owning animals if no one bred. as i have said before, where did you little pets come from? the didnt fall from the sky, they wernt the result of some wierd immaculate conception. they were bred. Grow up children.

Kat

[Rachy1412]

Just because people don't agree with doesn't give you the right to get offensive.

I know nothing about your breeding programme so I won't judge.

[Moosley]

Just because people don't like the idea of people breeding or selling to petshops (despite having no experiance with it) doesn't give them the right to get offensive either ;)

[tvrodents]

i am not being offensive. not compared to you lot who called moosley every name under the sun including a retard (which i personally find very offensive as i have a down syndrome cousin)

[ylrebmik]

I dont believe in the word offensive... everything is offesive so it shouldn't matter...its just opinions that people don't agree with.

[bruises]

Actually, I think the one doing the most (only?) name-calling in that thread was PooingCavy (or whatever his name is now). That guy's an obnoxious little brat, really, and I don't think many people here would be happy to be lumped into the same group as him. -_-

[daddysgurl9245]

your all deluded into thinking that you can continue owning animals if no one bred. as i have said before, where did you little pets come from? the didnt fall from the sky, they wernt the result of some wierd immaculate conception. they were bred. Grow up children.

Kat

No one ever said that people should stop breeding. We mean to leave it to the professionals who know what they're doing. Ever heard of animals breeding in the wild and becoming the babies we know and love today? How do you think breeding started in the first place? Oh, and ever heard of RESCUE WORK?

[tvrodents]

actually Bruises... i think i agree with you. i just find that sort of behaviour irritiating and i realise that i am getting rather annoyed about all this. i dont mean to but its just so frustrating when you cannot get your point across. im not expecting any of your to agree with me.. you clearly dont but i would like it if you just accepted that i am a good breeder. its because of the bad breeders out there that i had so many rescues this year. i *keep* saying that i can see your points and that in most instances i agree with you all... id just rather that my ethics, experience and knowledge didnt keep being queried every five minutes, thats all. this isnt an unreasonable request.

Kat

[Rachy1412]

No one apart from pooingcavy called moosley anything; don't bring up that debate in here, keep it to the right thread.

tvrodents, I don't see the trouble with you breeding, you seem to know what your doing. I Just don't agree with selling any animals to petshops.

[daddysgurl9245]

If you find this so annoying then, tvrodents, why don't you just stop posting on this thread? We're allowed to voice our opinions.

[tvrodents]

Exactly! you hit the nail right on the head there honey, "we are allowed to voice our own opinions"
THAT is why i keep posting in this thread.

Ever heard of animals breeding in the wild and becoming the babies we know and love today? How do you think breeding started in the first place? Oh, and ever heard of RESCUE WORK?

if you think that taking animals out of the wild as PETS is ok then you really might want to do some research. if there are so few of the species in captivity that you need to resort to the wild population then the only ethical reason for doing so is if you are going to breed them and create a captive colony so that you can leave the wild animals alone.

i DO take in rescues. read my posts.

Kat

[daddysgurl9245]

I wasn't referring to taking animals out of the wild today. What do you think our ancestors did though? They took wild animals and domesticated them. In one of your previous posts, I was referring to this statement:
"where did you little pets come from? the didnt fall from the sky, they wernt the result of some wierd immaculate conception. they were bred."

Our little pets came from wild animals the bred in the wild and then were domesticated by our ancestors. Today there are so many things that can go wrong with breeding that we have to be careful what we do.

[Jennicat]

My little pets came from rescues, quite without the help of professional breeders.

[Moosley]

Well if there were more breeders like Kat and less idiots who think its great to breed for the fun of it then there wouldnt NEED to be as many or *any* animals in rescues.

People say they support 'good' breeders but prefer to rescue animals, thats all very well but if they actually supported 'good' breeders then they wouldnt 'harass' everyone without valid knowledge of the person in question.

They also have to keep pestering people to rehome animals from rescue sanctuaries as they would be trying to keep the sanctuaries clear in the first place.

As it is, half my animals are rescues anyway, but then again, i am all for supporting and helping petshops and supplying them with healthy sound stock and making sure they sell safe products and have the knowledge to provide customers with the correct care for an animal they purchase.

It's a bit useless for you guys to be so horribly against pet shops and people who own or run them but you aren't willing to help them put right the mistakes made over the years.

[Jennicat]

I'm quite happy to help pet shops put right the mistakes made over the past years. I shop at pet stores that don't sell animals, and that support rescues, and bring in rescue animals to help with adoption.

[Moosley]

Exactly, helping the problem. You aren't helping the shops that don't know any different or better are you?!

[dig Ophelia]

I work in a pet shop that doesn't sell any animals. We do work together with several rescues, so we sometimes have pets in there. And we also work together with some breeders, but we never have their pets there. Instead with have some photos of them, and of course the contact info.

So while I don't think all breeders selling through pet shops are automatically bad, it baffles me that some supposedly good breeders would just hand over their well-bred animals to a store like that. o_O

To start with, background checks and information can be quite iffy. Since the checks are rarely done at all and information might not be given when needed. I've often overheard parents in pet shops being completely unaware of certain needs of some animals they're about to buy for their kid, but they don't bring up those things when around any employee.

Also, most breeders I talk to prefer to have their animals at home until sold, so that they can check in on them every once in a while. That's not very easy to do when the animals're in a store, that the breeder doesn't even have total access to. And there's no telling if the employees will have any time to properly check on each animal.

Then there's the matter of socializing. I mean, sure, we get young rescue pets too, but we try to get foster homes for them, and not all rescues are young. Breeder's pets generally are when sold though. So why would a breeder place their pets in a store where they won't be able to socialize them well, won't be able to oversee the process, and where the pets might even be handled roughly (depending on how secure the enclosures are)? Pets need to be handled well while young, if they spend their youth in a pet store the employees likely won't be able to give that to them. If you bred your animals to be the best of the best, why risk that? O_o

And the breeders we work with all have waiting lists too.

[Rachy1412]

You really think places like Petco, Petsmart, Pets at home are just going to stop getting byb pigs because we say so?

[Moosley]

^ which is exactly why we need better pet shops and more people willing to achieve that.

[Moosley]

Pets @ Home is a pile of shit lol. But if we had lots of people working to improve pet shops and advertise the fact that their animals are from so and so or such and such breeder, put those damned useless animal markets (aka petsmart etc) out of business on the animal side. Other than that they are pretty good on the products side of things, prices too.

[Jennicat]

I'm not supporting them. When they go out of business, they wont' be doing it anymore.

And in my spare time, I volunteer with the local nonprofit that sells pet supplies to cover adoption expenses. I spent large amounts of my time educating the public about the problems with buying animals from pet stores, and encouraging them to support one of the several supply-only stores around here, as well as the many rescues.

But I can see how all my volunteer and education work is really helping the problem, dear. ;) Boy, the jumped up kids today have such weird ideas.

[Rachy1412]

Moosley what is your Pets @ home like?

[ylrebmik]

exactly. i dont think i'll ever buy a pet from a petstore again... some cages are so small... and i'm only contribuating to it. I would much rather get from a shelter or even more, a good breeder. I think thats a really good idea of having breeders posted in pet stores but not actual pets in there...:)

[tvrodents]

she's got a pint. i think rescuing is fantastic and i know that there isnt an easy way round it but whilst peple save unsound animals from crappy pet shops and from rescues they are still fueling the bad breeding trade.

I wasn't referring to taking animals out of the wild today. What do you think our ancestors did though? They took wild animals and domesticated them. In one of your previous posts, I was referring to this statement:
"where did you little pets come from? the didnt fall from the sky, they wernt the result of some wierd immaculate conception. they were bred."

i discussed this earlier in the thread and said that UNLESS you are going to breed a self sustaining captive population to PREVENT further animals being taken from the wild it shouldnt be done. it is immoral

Kat

[Moosley]

Rachy, my local P@H is surprisingly good actually, the only thing i can complain aobut is the stupid staff but thats the companies stupidity and being inept to hire staff with any knowledge or provide any training.

All their rodents are in 20g, 30g or 40g tanks (depening on species and number in tank) plus they are all seperated by sex. The rabbits and guinea pigs are in large runs with hutches in, about 12ft by 4 or 5ft each and although. I don't know what shavings they use but they didnt smell like pine to me.

Their animals are alive and healthy, albeit brough from some shite breeder (who i could easily guess at who he, the breeder is..)

[tvrodents]

i think that may have been a reference to me ebing a kid. how amusing. *Kat wonders how many years it will be before her hair goes grey*

[Moosley]

^ depends how much more grief you get from these idiots Kat LOL

[Jennicat]

Actually, it was a reference to Moosley's own ridiculous statement in another thread about how "all the jumped up kids" were getting to them. Heh.

[K9BOB]

No responsible breeder sells their cats or dogs to a pet store..I believe this actually goes for most small animal breeders as well.

Well please do not take this wrong but I am an extremist and as such feel that we need to go even further in the logic and understanding.

1. responsible dog breeders are in fact/practice defined differently than responsible cat breeders and the lists change depending on what type of animal or bird that one speakes of.

A responsible dog breeder would seldom breed,only to improve the breed, and not as function of providing pets to other people or thus becoming a MILL.

I think it would be rare that you would find a breeder of many other animal types who uses the exacting standards of responsible dog and horse breeders for example. In addition as I have pointed out in the past not all so called responsible breeders and responsible buyers agree on what constitutes a responsible breeder. For example if someone where to breed Border Collies without insuring average or above average herding ability in both parents than I would find this unexceptable in the justification for breeding to improve the breed. Also I think that all pups/dogs would be microchipped with the breeders info so that the dog/s could always be traced back to the breeder..so without going into this illustration further it is obviouse that their will always be sometimes extreme variations as to what critera constitutes a RESPOSIBLE BREEDER or responsible buyer.


How could you call someone responsible that doesn't have a spay/neuter contract for their puppies/kittens and doesnt' know where they will end up in the future?

There's also no health guarantee/temperament testing. How is that responsible?

I also think their is a misconception about what a health guarentee is and can be..No one can guarentee that a dog will be healthy and free of genectic defects in most cases and really should be called a WARRANTY to be more accurate and less misleading

No responsible breeder breeds mixed breed dogs...there is an overbundance of dogs worldwide, why would anyone who gives a penny do this?
I agree with this statement for the most part but their situations where I would find this to be inaccurate also..but will not go into it at the moment unless someone wants to take issue with this fact.


I would like everyone's comments and opinions on this. I was actually surprised to see a pet shop section on this forum. Most forums I go to absolutely dispise pet stores that sell live animals, ESPECIALLY dogs and cats..well, because we know where most of them come from....if not a puppy mill, then definately from a backyard breeder.

It is good that you ask for opinions...

this place is actually composed of anything and everything and does not focus in anyway on agendas or opposing morals/ethics/or advertisements....it/s a free for all.....yes even sex..

k9bob

just venting myself

[greendayrocks]

i agree but the pet store i go to is a good pet store the guy that runs it wont even sell u the pet if u dont know how to care for it and he tell u alot about the animal u buy, and it's a clean place and the animals r friendly. i hate how people breed animals that way,like my dumb sister inlaw thinks her cat need to get pregnant so maybe she come down then take the kittens to the shelter. how does someone say they love animals then say something like that.

[Amanda427]

I totally agree on this one! Someone who buys even the smallest item from a petshop are idiot's! They think well, just a small chew toy will not promote them. Sorry you thought wrong! There are so many irresponsible pet owners that the irresponsiblilty is to blame to the pet shop's, They sell to anyone over the age of 18 years. With a smallest amount of information about that particular animal. And that is why the shelters are so loaded with animals. Because the stuiped buyers at a pet shop have no qlue what so ever on how to care for this type of animal let alone caring for it for the rest of his/her life. There is a pet shop right by our food store. And as I was walking out. I saw a lady with a HL ( hairless ) chinese crested puppy. ( Of course I have to ask her ) were did you get your chinese crested from, And she replies, " I just bought her from Pet Kare " I replied, Oh! Did they give you any information on how to going about caring for her skin,feeding her the proper food, As you should know crested's have a low tolerence to grains,die's of any kind. Anyway, She said no, They just gave me a 30 day health guarantee and coupon 's for puppy food ( which were the crappiest brand of food you could possibly feed a dog. ) and my receipt. I said If you dont mind me asking how much did you pay for her? She said I paid 2500 dollars. ( That's more then my friend ( A crested breeder ) would charge for a show Quailty HL Chinese crested ) * The Hairless' chinese cresteds cost more then the powderpuff's do * ( Just an FYI )... So it all comes down to this: Pet stores, Do not inform owners about the animal their buying,They over charge, They do not give a flying hoot about the well being of the animals, And what get's me the most is they promote Amish Breeders. Geesh.... What kinda people are they? I could go on with my stories of pet shops but I have to go to bed.
So,
Good Night!

[ylrebmik]

I agree. I called puppy world out of curiosity to find out how much their pups where and for a standard chihuahua it was like 900 dollars. And it was the same thing as the lady you talked about...health garentee and no instructions. The rescues are like mini breeders...they ask you a ton of questions...just dont hand them to you!

[tvrodents]

erm... this isnt an arguement, this is curiousity:

If you guys dont buy anything from pet shops where do you buy your supplies from?
I only ask because i refuse to use tescos due to the fact that in china they are selling live turtles as food items in their shops. Its how they make a killing as it were. I'm just curious where you get your stuff from. 90% of mine comes wholesale and i dont neeed to go to pet shops. You know what no one thought to ask... whether or not i work at the pet shop in question!

The answer to it is that yes.... i do.

Kat

[Jennicat]

There are many pet stores near me that sell only supplies and not animals. I buy my pet supplies from these places.

[tvrodents]

I see... so pet stores in themselves are ok so long as they dont sell animals? that seems fair given your opinions.
There are no pet stores in my area that do not sell animals bar the one opposite where i live. she is nice snough but thinks keeping animals is wrong... yet she sells the smallest, most expensive cages, the cheapest pet food and the two occasions i have brought hay form her i have had a mite out break so i dont feel i can trust her. I'll stick with whole sale i think.

Kat

[Bilbo12]

I dont think all pets stores are bad. My pet store sells small animals, reptiles, fish, and birds. However, they are never "over stocked" with animals. They verr good care of the ones they have. The employees know what they are talking about (usually). The animals are all happy. I bought my hamster, Blossom form there. She had been handled by people who worked there, so she's never been scared of me. That store even let's hold the animal before you buy it. The don't over charge. I paid five dollars for Blossom, I could go to Petsmart and pay 20 dollars for the same kind.

I guess my point is, not ALL petshops are bad, and just because you buy something from a petstore does not mean you are an idiot. I know there are alot of intelligent, and kind people on PH who buy from petstores.

[Jennicat]

I never said that people who buy from pet stores that sell animals are idiots. However they need to be aware that they're supporting small animal mills. Most people seem to think that's an inappropriate way to raise animals, however, they still shop at Petsmart, etc.

[Rachy1412]

I get my hay from a horse feed place, I get my pellets from an animal feed store and any toys I buy online. If you have the internet there's no excuse not to buy online.

[bruises]

"That store even let's hold the animal before you buy it."

Whoa, wait a sec. Now, I have no idea since I've never bought animals from pet stores, but do pet stores usually not let people hold their future animal? And people regularly buy animals without even holding them first? Whut.

[tvrodents]

Here here!!
Thats my point precisely... some petshops are really, truely dire and should be allowed to stock animals.
Others are very good.
I'm suprised that you were suprised to have been allowed to hold the animal before you brought her... this is obviously good but do USA pet shops not normally let you?

Kat

[Rachy1412]

Imagine how stressed that animal is being constantly picked up! I bet they have alot of people/kids saying they want that one just so that they can hold it. Personally I wouldn't let anyone hold the animals unless their paid for. I was allowed to hold Truffle before I brought her from a petshop 2years ago. If I had been a "normal" child I would not have brought her after that, she screamed when I picked her up and kept running off. I brought her anyway and gave her a dose of ivermection asap!

[tvrodents]

Soory but thats rediculous. My animals come out all the time and it doesnt stress them. If the animal is well bred and used to being handled then it wont stress it at all to be handled by people. If anything it will actually help it to realise that humans are a good thing and the more it is handled, the more it gets used to it and the less it will stress it out next time.
Most young hamsters scream like that, They do it when they are playing, when they are annoyed and when they are in an unusual situation. It is not always a panic noise.
I would never buy an animal with out being able to handle it first - i want to check its teaath, its ears, its eyes, for any lumps or parasites. Its a very important thing to do and you cannot possibly do this if you cannot handle the animal.

Kat

[thefab4]

I would never get an animal that I couldn't hold before hand. That's just crazy. There is absolutely no reason not to let people hold the animals. As long as the people clean their hands before and after and are shown how to properly hold the animal, there shouldn't be any problems.

[Jennicat]

I think you've hit the nail on the head, fab4. There's no way for people to clean their hands before holding animals. When we have animals in from shelters at the nonprofit, we have hand sanitizer dispensers and insist that people clean their hands at least before (and we encourage afterwards, too. ;)

[Rachy1412]

Tv rodents, it was a guinea pig not a hamster I got. Truffle had been handled alot and no one wanted her because she hated being held. She was 12weeks old when I got her, not the usual 6weeks. Granted if the petshop had just treated her for mites she would have gotten better. To this day though Truffle still screams when being picked up, she has gotten better though and just sort of wimpers instead of a full blown scream.

I don't like my friends/family coming over and picking up my pigs as god knows where their hands have been and I don't like people mis handerling them. That would go on ALOT in petshops that allow you to hold the pets.

[tvrodents]

in the UK its a health and safety regulation to esure that customers can wash or sanitise thier hands before and after handling animals.
Sorry, must have misread you on the cavy/hamster thing
But I still stand by my point and that of the fab4... I would never, ever buy an animal or rescue one that i couldnt handle and health check first. Its totally irresposible. Especially if you have other pets. If you take home an animal that has mites you could spread it to all your animal, a hamster with the first sings of wet tail could kill off all your other syrians etc. Even if you dont agree im sure you can see where I am coming from

Kat

Kat

[Rachy1412]

in the UK its a health and safety regulation to esure that customers can wash or sanitise thier hands before and after handling animals.


I guess that all the petshops around here are breaking the law then. NONE make you wash your hands before or after handling the animals and I doubt they have the facilities to allow you to do that. They do at farms and zoos but not a petshops.

If it is irresponsible to buy a pet with mites then what does that make the people who are selling the animal?

[Moosley]

It makes them stupid LOL.

If you own a lot of animals.. or any animals then your priorities lay with keeping them healthy and happy. You don't bring in an animal with a known health problem that is contagious unless you have proper quarantine facilities.

If you see animals suffering in a pet shop you inform the owner. If they refuse to do anything, you report them.

There are laws surrounding all the health and safety issues with handling animals etc and yeh... most places are breaking the law, it's just... no one seems to care about enforcing those laws any more, too busy trying to shut down completely innocent charities etc, too busy trying to ban shows.

[Rachy1412]

I just don't buy from petshops any more. Informing the owner is not going to help in most cases, they don't care about the health only making some money. In the past I've brought home two sick animals from petshops, both had mites one was just sore to touch the over had open sores. I should have just reported them but I was stupid enough to buy them and treat them myself, giving them the money to buy more. If you buy/sell from any petshop you are supporting the trade, whether they are responsible petshops or not.

Shows are cruel that is why we are busying trying to ban them.

[RabbitMage]

Shows are cruel that is why we are busying trying to ban them.

:rolleyes:

[Mistwraith]

I don't think that's a very fair thing to say. I sold my degus to a pet shop here in town, and I've bought a leoperd gecko and a red albino corn snake. Both are in very good condition, and he keeps his animals there good. They are always fed, their cages are always clean, you never see any sores or mites on them at all. You can't take it out on all of the pet shops. Just because a few pet shops don't treat their animals right, doesn't mean none of them do. There are lots of pet shops that give their animals the best of care, just like petco, petsmart, and the pet shop in town, and I know there are more.

[Rachy1412]

Your completely missing the point. It is not just about how the petshop cares for the animal, there are TOO many animals in shelters dieing because petshop sell animals. Petshops do not need to sell animals as there are plently needing homes already. Every time you buy an animal from a shop one in a shelter is denied a home and may even be killed.

Whether or not the petshop actually bothers to take care of their animals is not the main issue. No petshop that I have seen or heard of actually does home checks before they sell an animal and months after to check up on them. The petshop will never know where their animals have ended up and most will be in shelters now.

[Mistwraith]

You do know that not everybody is able to get an animal from a shelter, and it's not their fault! Some towns don't have a shelter, and the nearest one is to far away to drive to, what would you do then? I guess you hate everybody who buys pets from a pet store?

[Rachy1412]

Don't assume. In the rare case of not having a shelter nearby then some may only have the one choice of buying from a petshop. My nearest shelter is a 2hour drive. But there are ways around that. Trains, buses, taxis, some shelters even offer a "Piggy Train". This is where one person will travel so far and another will pick it up and travel to the next stop and so forth. And really if you shelter doesn't have the animal you want you should wait, there will always be homeless animals everywhere.

[Mistwraith]

So, I have another question. Are you against breeding just like your against pet shops? If so, I'd really like to know why.

[Rachy1412]

Of course I am, depending on the level of care though. Most breeders are just BYB's breeding for money and to have cute little babies! I am more anti guinea pig/rabbit breeding as those are the animals I concentrate on. 20-25% of female guinea pigs die while giving birth, too high for me. While there are thousands of animals dieing in shelters there is no need or reason to breed. Go to your local shelter and see what happens on a daily basis then maybe you will change your mind.

Edit: I have no problem with people who have brought or breed their animals aslong as people realize that what they did was wrong and now try and help the problem rather than add to it.

[Mistwraith]

I won't change my mind. Where do you think the animals in the shelter come from? Breeding. Where do you think the animals in the pet stores come from? Breeding. If people stoped breeding, then there wouldn't be any animals left for us to buy, or get from the animal shelters. Slowly, most animals would become extinct.

[Jennicat]

Ah, that old argument. That's not realistic. People are never going to stop breeding, and if they did, there would still be accidents.

[Mistwraith]

I'm glad people will never stop breeding. In fact, I wouldn't mind breeding. My aunt breeds labs, and my friend might breed dogs, can't remember what kind though. I'd like to breed snakes or leoperd geckos.

[ylrebmik]

Wow! Your nearest shelter is 2 hours away?! I have 4 within a half hour drive in opposite directions.

[Rachy1412]

In an ideal world no one would have pets, but lets be realistic here we are not going to run out of animals and the overpopulation problem will still exsist if people like you breed. A good breeder will openly admit they are adding to the overpopulation problem and should always take in rescue animals and adopt them out before even considering selling their "perfect" pets.

Kimberly, that was my nearest guinea pig rescue actually. There is a cat rescue about a 15minute walk/3minute drive just down my road. Theres another RSCPA rescue about 45mins-1hour away from here. The area I come from in England doesn't have many guinea pig rescues but I've never really looked for cat/dog rescues so I bet theres alot more here than I know of.

[Mistwraith]

Rachy, that is a stupid thing to say, I'm sorry, but it is. There is absoultly nothing wrong with breeding! Not everybody is able to adobt a pet, some people may want to breed so that way they can be around the animals, or to sell them, and selling them is fine. I'm only against breeding when the breeder keeps their animals in bad conditions, and doesn't feed them or something.

[Rachy1412]

Work with animals in a rescue instead of making MORE and MORE unwanted animals. Breeding animals is not your right, it is a privilage. A Privilage not many people should be allowed. You wait till you see how many animals are put to sleep each day because of breeding then maybe you will change your mind. If you want to be selfish and breed that is your choice but not your right. Breeding is fine if the animal is endangered or there isn't any in shelters but for animals like dogs,cats,rabbits,guinea pigs, small animals etc there are too many needing homes and if you breed you are creating a bigger problem.

[RabbitMage]

Mist, Rachy is anti-breeder and anti-show. I've asked her before what she considers responsible breeding and she never did answer, leading me to believe she's against breeding anything for any reason.

Unless, Rachy, you'd like to answer now?

[HandcuffedAngel]

The thing about pet shops is they can't afford to buy from reputable breeders. To make a profit off of animals from reputable breeders they could not have competitive prices.

Also, the pet shops typically do not follow the rules and regulations they are given resulting in a lot of unnecessary problems.

[Rachy1412]

Mist, Rachy is anti-breeder and anti-show. I've asked her before what she considers responsible breeding and she never did answer, leading me to believe she's against breeding anything for any reason.

Unless, Rachy, you'd like to answer now?

As I said I don't believe there is a NEED for breeding while there are so many animals in shelters, so there isn't such a thing as responsible breeding at the moment. Maybe once the population problem settles down then the responsible breeders can breed. They should breed only to improve the health and not the "looks". They shouldn't show, they should be registered breeders, they should have a strict re homing policy like most rescues. All breeding animals should be kept indoors and if they have too many to put indoors they are clearly over breeding, their animals need to be treated like living creatures rather than stock that you keep in your shed. Theres plently more but those are just the some of them.

Why do you insist on trying to make me sound like an evil person for being anti-show and breeder? I am not the one forcing my pets to sit in tiny cages for 24 hours without water and I am not the one forcing my animals to have lots and lots of cute little babies just so I can get a ribbon or a few bucks.

[Mistwraith]

Rachy, you are very close-minded, and in my book, not very mature. You should really be more open-minded to different things, and not think that your way is the only way and the only right way, and that everybody elses way is wrong.

[Rachy1412]

Excuse me? Your not accepting my opinion either so how dare you call me immature. You haven't shown me why either showing or breeding is good, maybe if someone showed me the goodside of it I would maybe understand why some people do it.

[Mistwraith]

I am accepting your opinion, and I considered it, but your opinion just doesn't make any sense. Some dogs enjoy dog shows, but if the dog doesn't like them, then I don't think you should put them through it. I have another question. Would you also be against service dogs? *says sarcasticly* I mean, we're forcing them to work and stuff, maybe thats wrong too!

[Rachy1412]

I never said anything about dog shows. Most dogs probably enjoy the attetion from shows but the only problem I have with dog shows is that it envolves breeding to get the perfect "looking" dog rather than the perfect genetic dog. I don't know anything about dog shows so I am not going to judge it, I only mean't rabbit and guinea pig showing. You can't force a service dog to work, if it didn't enjoy it they wouldn't do it.

[Mistwraith]

Showing is fine if the animal enjoys it! If the animal doesn't enjoy it, then I think it's wrong. Would you like to share more on service dogs? I wouldn't mind, but I must warn you, that is a very touchy subject with me. My grandmother has and trains service dogs, and my cousin has one too. Once I move, I'm going to do everything I can to get one to train.

[Jennicat]

I am accepting your opinion, and I considered it, but your opinion just doesn't make any sense. Some dogs enjoy dog shows, but if the dog doesn't like them, then I don't think you should put them through it. I have another question. Would you also be against service dogs? *says sarcasticly* I mean, we're forcing them to work and stuff, maybe thats wrong too!

Mistwraith, maybe you need to apply your own standards to yourself, hmmm?

Rachy accepted your opinion, considered it, and felt like it didn't make sense. You called her immature, close minded, and other names without actually dealing with her opinion itself.

But when you do it, it's ok Why is it ok for you to ridicule Rachy's opinion? Because you don't agree with it? Yet she says anything against yours and she is immature.

Maybe you should try to live up to your own standards.

I personally don't think that the type of breeding you describe is very ethical, nor do I think it should be done. A truly responsible breeder is responsible for their animals, and ensures they always have homes. A breeder cannot know where his or her animals go if they are selling them at a pet store. No matter how nice the pet store is, or how great it's employees are, it is no substitute for talking to the person yourself and doing an interview them (just like responsible dog breeders and responsible rescues do) to determine whether or not the animal they want to buy meets their needs.

Of course, since I don't agree with you, I'm sure I'm just close-minded and immature. While you were sitting and telling Rachy how immature she was, I was taking a load of donated vegetables over to our rescue. We're flooded with animals from pet stores and irresponsible breeders who are selling them that people buy with the best of intentions and then abandon.

[Mistwraith]

That's it, I quit petshub. I might come back later, but I have no intention to.

[Rachy1412]

I know nothing about service dogs so I don't wish to debate that. My answers are geared towards rabbits and guinea pigs so maybe you should keep that in mind. I don't own a dog and never have so I don't know what their like.

You don't know whether or not a guinea pig is enjoying sitting in a 1sq ft cage with no water all day. But as you can imagine it's not very fun! I am becoming increasing *annoyed*(As nicely as I can put it.). They breed to get the perfect LOOKING baby so they can win a poxy ribbon or get a few bucks. They keep them in a shed where they are treated like stock in tiny crap cages and yet they get away with it. They show no remorse for anything they do and go through live not giving a hoot. And yet I do my very best for my pets and still loose them, maybe if I started treating them the same way as breeders mine might live longer. Granted I am not the best owner but I do my best, better than most of those breeders.

Edit: Oh dang, I took so long writing my heartfelt peice that you both beat me too it!:p

[Mistwraith]

Rachy and Jennicat- I'm sorry. I wrote a whole long thing on the family chat, it's titled Sorry, so I'd really appreciate if you'd both read it.

Rachy- I'm sorry for accusing you of all those things. I was the one who was doing them, and I'm sorry.

[Punkygirl0101]

Mistraith, you are very selfish. Yes, the animals in shelters came from breeders, whats your point? Thats why there are so many animals in shelters. If people (other then reputable and responsible ones) would stop breeding, then us people who rescue animals wouldn't have so many to have to save. YOu just made our point..

Breeding is not good unless done right, not for money mist. That is cruel, thats an irresponsible reason to breed. Why breed to sell? The point of breeding is to BETTER the animal.

You need to grow up Mist. If you want to call yourself an animal lover, you need to understand what breeding is doing to all those animals in shelters. They are dying, and it is because of people breeding more and more. Just like your friend and aunt or who ever you said who breeds labs. They are adding to the overpopulation. Do you know how many lab mixes are in shelters? TONS! Because everyone thinks they need to breed them. Most people are breeding labs that have nothing special about them, and are not bettering the breed.

[Mistwraith]

You know what mel. I just got out of my class, and we were talking about self-esteem, and how what other people say can really hurt somebody. Well, guess what, that really hurt me! I know that I said some very mean things to Rachy, and I admit that, and I apolagized for that, and I'm truly sorry for what I said, but what you just said, really hurt me, and I kinda have the feeling that you don't care.

[Punkygirl0101]

I won't take what I said back, because I work hard to rescue these animals. It is abuse to breed an animal for selfish reasons, and I think all animal lovers should know what irresponsible breeding is doing to the animals we love. And you don't seem to understand a thing about breeding...so you cannot even back up what you are saying. You are not even against breeding in any way.. not even irresponsible breeding done for selfish reasons.

Yeah, you have self esteem issues, join the club. A lot of people do, including myself, but I am just so tired of people not understanding what breeding really is, and how is can either completely ruin a breed, or help it.

[Mistwraith]

You know what. #1 I have mentioned lots of times that I am against irresponsible breeding. #2 I never said I have self-esteem issues. #3 I don't think it's very fair to assume that somebody has self-esteem issues. #4 I CAN back up what I'm saying. #5 Since when did I talk about breeding for selfish reasons? #6 I DO understand breeding

[Melza]

ok, this is going to a never ending disbute! lol! but heres my 10 cents! i dont breed, never will, ii do a rodent (mice) rescue over here adn can see the overpopulation by that alone! i havent been to a show before but am thinking of viewing one to find out what chances my dutch has! lol! (no im not goinbg to take her there, just her photo, i dont want to show her, just curios!) everyone has a differnet opinion adn we dont always have to accept others opions, we are all different, but for the record, im the one on the fence throwing peanuts! :D

[Mistwraith]

You're the one on the fence throwing peanuts for what? And I agree, this is never going to end, and so what if we don't agree. We all have our opinions, I've learned that we should just accept eachothers opinions, and just go on with life. I mean, it's not the end of the world if some of us don't agree.

[Rachy1412]

but for the record, im the one on the fence throwing peanuts! :D

I wondered who that was.. stop it. :p

If we all just accepted eachothers opinion we wouldn't get anywhere in this world, nothing would progress. We wouldn't evolve and nothing would be sorted, the over population problem would just continue to grow or stay at the same level it is at now.

[Melza]

I wondered who that was.. stop it.
lol! no! i like to though them!
(mist, it simply means im on the fence, in the middle, sometimes a pain with my lack of side hence the peanuts!)
rach, you do have a valid point there

[Rachy1412]

I hate peanuts, can't you throw something tasty like candy!

Anyway... I was banned from a different forum the other week for not agreeing to disagree but that won't deter me from sticking up for what I believe in. If it was religion then that would be different but we're talking about playing with animal's lifes here, it's not something that should be taken lightly.

[Mistwraith]

I get your point rachy, but also, I think, that if we dont' accept eachothers opinions, then we won't get anywhere in life. I mean, we'll always be arguing, and standing up for what we believe in, and nobody will ever take the time to say, hmm, you know what, maybe your right. And I have been thinking that rachy. "What if she is right, and I'm wrong?" But we all have our own opinions, and we're NEVER going to agree on everything. Sometimes, we have to agree to disagree, that's just the way life works. Please, don't take offense at any of this, all of this is just my opinion, and I don't mean to start a fight by any of what I just said.

[tvrodents]

Rachy, you are wrong to think that 25% of cavies die during birth. Thats a rediculous lie and I dont know who told you that was the case. The reson to breed is propogation of a species, improving the health/temperament of a species and a lesser extent is enjoyment although is should go hand in hand with the other two. In an ideal world no one would have pets?!?!?! Thats a disgusting thought! do you know what would happen to the good old syrian hamster if it wasnt for the fact that we keep them as pets... they'd be EXTINCT within a few years.
I work in ferret rescue and do see some awful things whilst I am there so saying that working in rescue will stop you wanting to breed is rediculous. Very few petshops will buy from breeders whos premise they hacnt inspected or whos breeding animals they havent seen. In fact I would refuse to supply a petshop that didnt ask these sort of questions of me.
My animals are kept in a heated, insulated shed and they are still pets. I spend more time in with them than i do in my house. Does that make me a bad owner? I dont think so.
The perfect looking animal is the perfect genetic animal or at least should be if you care about your 'stock'.
Rachy no one is trying to make you sound like an evil person for being against showing and breeding, they are just making thier points. This debate is hugely frustrating. I genuinly can see your view rachy, I really can, I am as against bad breeding as you are and this is why I take in rescues too. You seem to be of the opinion that any one that keeps thier animals in a shed is bad and mistreats them and that all breeders have thier animals in teeny cages. This isnt the case. I am not slandering you for your view but please understand that i dont appreciate being lumped in the same catagory as the BYB's that you refere to.

Kat

[tvrodents]

posted this twice by accident... have edited...

Kat

[Rachy1412]

Sorry it wasn't 25% it was mean't to be 20% and that figure comes directly from the American Cavy Breeders association. A BYB is a back YARD breeder, which is exactly what you are doing. The best looking animal is not always the healthiest. Just curious how big your guinea pig cages are then, since breeders have different standards. Which is what I don't get, theres breeder standards and pet standards, they shouldn't be any different. Infact breeder standards should be BETTER than the pet standards.

If I said to you that I had a insulated shed and bred dogs in there what would you say? Or cats for that matter, is that ok?

[tvrodents]

cats shgouldnt be contained so Id be annoyed with you. Think of my shed as another room rather than a shed. Thats what it is. it is heated and has power. Its warmer than my house considering that the heating system isnt working properly. dont try to make me sound like a back yard breeder. I am one of the best and i dont appreciate you making me out to be anything other than responsible.
Oh cavy cages: 4ft with access to the 9ft square shed floor when I am able to let them which is most days

Kat

[tvrodents]

also, I cant speak for america but any breeder thats loosing two out of every ten breeding females should give up. The UK doesnt have that problem if breeders are GOOD.

[squealingkiddos]

I personally think UK has a lot better showing standards than America... like cavies aren't ear tagged there, etc. But isn't OD in satins more of a problem in UK? That's the thing I don't like with the Satins, is that they aren't as sound as the non-satins.

[Jennicat]

also, I cant speak for america but any breeder thats loosing two out of every ten breeding females should give up. The UK doesnt have that problem if breeders are GOOD.

I'm sure you could write a letter to ACBA and get them to change the way they do business. After all, breeders are so accepting of anyone challenging the way they do things at all.

[tvrodents]

I only have a het satin female and a homo male to counter this prblem. most people dont have a problem but im not taking that risk

Kat

[squealingkiddos]

I only have a het satin female and a homo male to counter this prblem. most people dont have a problem but im not taking that risk

Kat

I find the non-satins healthier, bigger, and live longer. Satins are gorgeous! But have too many problems with them! All my Abys are purebred Abys, and all healthy and good weight. I have one satin Aby and she is almost 1 year, and still Int. weight. A lot of satins have trouble with weight. But then it runs from lines to lines. But since regular non-satin Abys, Americans, and Peruvians been around the longest in American (first three shown) they are pretty healthy.

What's a "het" satin? And homo male? Do you mean satin carrier male?

[tvrodents]

yes sorry i talk in genetic terms het as in hetrozygous.. only one set of chromosomes on their genotype for that colour. a carrier. I have just made it sound so much more complicated than it is!!

[squealingkiddos]

Oh-I know the word... just didn't know what you meant by just using "het". I would of knew if it were "hetro" or something.

[Mistwraith]

I like that tvrodents. You weren't mean or anything about making your point. I have changed some of my views on breeding, as in, I think it's wrong to breed if you are keeping your animals in bad condition, but I think it's fine if somebody keeps their animals in a shed. I mean, I wouldn't like it if they kept their animals there, and never spent time with them, and didn't take care of them, but keeping them in a shed, and taking good care of them, and spending lots of time with them is good. I also like the fact that you keep you shed heated tvrodents.

[squealingkiddos]

I have a shed with A/C, a heater, and it's OWN electricity.

[Mistwraith]

Wow, that's awesome!

[Rachy1412]

A good breeder would keep their guinea pigs indoors, it is safer. 4sq ft is a breeder standard, 7.5sqft is what you should have for each pig. So this is where I get annoyed, you force your guinea pigs to have babies that you don't need and then make them live in small cages. A 9sq ft run is only big enough for 2 maybe three pigs so quite frankly your cage standards are a typical of breeders. Why waste money on heating a shed when you could just keep them indoors? If you don't have enough room for them then you shouldn't have them in the first place.

You have a problem with me breeding cats and dogs in a shed but not guinea pigs? Why is that, how is it any different?

[tvrodents]

sorry, prob a UK herptile thing... ignore me :)
lol
I cant help it i think in genetics and talk in genetics
If my shed wasnt heated some of my animals would die and i am not prepared for that to happen. Breeding is always going to be an emotive subject and whilst I cans ee the view points against them, I still stick by my own. I think that maybe the UK should introduce some sort of breeding licence. the only one available at present covers dogs. I know this because I regularly look into it and talk to my local council. As soon as there is a licence I will be applying for one.

Kat

[Melza]

lol rach, fine, but peanuts hurt more..... throws candy, *one for throwing, one for eating...*

i must admit you have apoint rach, would anyone here breed a cat or a dog in a shed, heated or not? i doubt it, certainly no reputable breeder, why is it ok for piggies then??

(may i ask what site you were disabled from rach?)

everyone has their own opinion, rach is very firm on her view and thats fine, you cant impose anything on her, nor can she to you. :p :P

[RabbitMage]

It's also not accepted, generally, to keep cats and dogs in cages. Yet most small animals have to be caged. It's hard to compare points between dog/small animals in many cases.

I don't have a problem with people keeping CONTAINED animals outdoors, so long as they're properly protected. My buns are in a well insulated, cooled barn which is preditor proof as well. And yes, in the summer, the rabbitry is usually cooler than the house. We bought a back-up generator this year so even if the power went out, the bunnies would have working air, and we'd just go stand in the rabbitry for a bit!

I advise the same amout of space for pet rabbits as I do my own bunnies.

As I keep saying, an animal that is unhealthy, undersocialized, or poorly kept is NOT going to do well in a show. It doesn't matter if the animal in question is a horse or a hamster. The health and care of the animal is the MOST noticiable thing about them in a show, and if you don't have that, nothing else is going to matter. Health is always at the front of a good breeder's mind.

[Rachy1412]

Can I ask how you predator proofed your barn; I imagine it is easier than if they were just outside in a hutch. I don't understand why you want to waste money on insulating a shed when you should just keep them indoors, that extra money could go on improving their life.

I am not comparing dogs to small animals but I don't see why one animal should be treated better than the other. Just because one animal is caged doesn't mean you can just dump them outside in your shed. Dog and cat breeding laws are much stricter than those of guinea pigs/rabbit laws. If health is always in the front of a good breeders mind why do you need to go to a show? If you don't know whether or not your animal is healthy you shouldn't have bred them, you shouldn't need a show judge to back you up.

This is all I am getting at the moment, from tvrodents more than you rabbitmage as I don't know your cage sizes etc: You breed in your back garden, in a shed. You take them to shows so that you can get a pretty ribbon or trophy, and to get a professional opinion whether or not your animal’s genetics are fine to breed, but all they can tell is whether or not their looks are good enough to breed. They can't tell if it will have any genetics problems later in life. And last but not least your cages are less than adequate, giving your guinea pigs less space than they need while forcing them to produce more and more babies.

Does that sound good to you?

Melza, I was banned from Cavies G a l o r e. I went on about how a 6sq ft cage wasn't big enough for 3 pigs and they told me to shut up and agree to disagree or be banned. So with me being as stubborn as I am.. :p.. I continued to go on and in the end got banned. It was alright for them to continue to tell me that 6sq ft was fine but I wasn't allowed to argue back.

[Jennicat]

It's also not accepted, generally, to keep cats and dogs in cages. Yet most small animals have to be caged. It's hard to compare points between dog/small animals in many cases.

In some ways, it's very easy to compare rabbits to cats. Like cats, our rabbits (at the rescue) are easily litter trained, and generally have run of the house until they are "crated" at night to prevent accidents. Most enjoy human companionship on their own terms, and don't exactly like being snuggled to death.

Rabbits are fully as intelligent as cats and (IMHO) need just as much, if not more stimulation. If it is inappropriate to keep cats in a cage, why do rabbits fare better there? Especially when some of the cages are so dismally small.

A breeder that I have run into several times online claims that the ARBA minimum for cage sizes is ~4 square feet. If you have any number of rabbits over even 6-7, it's impossible to give a rabbit adequate time out. This person had 30 rabbits, in her garage, all stacked on top of each other.

Now, morally, if I feel that it's wrong for chickens (who, love them as I do, are not the world's brightest creatures) to be kept in cages all day with a minimum of room to be made to lay eggs, why should I not protest when I see rabbit breeders with dozens of animals stacking them up like boxes at Walmart in cages with barely enough room to hop back and forth?

[m0usey]

Why would you even ask a question about not breeding cats or dogs in a shed but breeding guinea pigs? The obvious difference is SIZE. To a dog or cat, a 10 ft area is a crate. To a guinea pig, a 10 ft area is a house. THAT's the difference. If you have a really big shed with all the comforts of a dog's home, and spend time with them daily, why not keep a dog in there?

For some people keeping animals in a shed is easier than in a barn...I know in my house we just don't have room for some animals...if I had a shed with heating/insulation/etc. I would keep one in there! Also, if a parent or other relative is allergic it is definitely much smarter to keep the animal in the shed...if it's well-cared for.

Rachy, many people just ENJOY showing. For example, they are PROUD of their pet and they want to show it off...what better way to be proud and show off than to win a show? For most people, the money is just a bonus. I don't think most people go to shows so that the judge can tell them they have a good animal :rolleyes: . Most people who go to shows have a good reliable vet also, since it usually costs money to ENTER the shows...why enter if you don't think your animal will win?

[Jennicat]

Why would you even ask a question about not breeding cats or dogs in a shed but breeding guinea pigs? The obvious difference is SIZE. To a dog or cat, a 10 ft area is a crate. To a guinea pig, a 10 ft area is a house. THAT's the difference. If you have a really big shed with all the comforts of a dog's home, and spend time with them daily, why not keep a dog in there?

For some people keeping animals in a shed is easier than in a barn...I know in my house we just don't have room for some animals...if I had a shed with heating/insulation/etc. I would keep one in there! Also, if a parent or other relative is allergic it is definitely much smarter to keep the animal in the shed...if it's well-cared for.

Rachy, many people just ENJOY showing. For example, they are PROUD of their pet and they want to show it off...what better way to be proud and show off than to win a show? For most people, the money is just a bonus. I don't think most people go to shows so that the judge can tell them they have a good animal :rolleyes: . Most people who go to shows have a good reliable vet also, since it usually costs money to ENTER the shows...why enter if you don't think your animal will win?

M0usey, there are dogs that are smaller than guinea pigs or rabbits. There are many guinea pigs over 3 lbs, while teacup chihuahuas are often touted as being "2 lbs or less". Meanwhile there are breeds of rabbit that are the size of cats, and bigger than some dogs. So it is ok to breed a bunch of dogs in a shed outside in cages as long as they're little? Why does size matter as to living conditions? Is a guinea pig or a rabbit less deserving of ample room and mental stimulation than a cat or a dog because they might be smaller?

[squealingkiddos]

Shows are just for the enjoyment of the owner; to meet new people, talk to friends, see other pigs, etc. If show breeders didn't like shows, then I doubt they would stay in the hobby.

Shows aren't cheap either. We've spend over $43 just ALONE on entry fees! That's for showing 10 pigs, some in single, some double (single cost $3.50, double cost $5.50). And to put on a show is expensive! The 4-H county I was in put on two shows, and I helped out on the last one (since before that was the first show I attended and I was extremely new to showing.) and I did awards and that was just $500! It all added up to over $1,000, but then with entry fees and the auction they had, they got their money back, plus a tiny bit back.

Personally, like over 90% of the cavy breeders I know sell to petstores (that includes the ones that have sound cavies that win a lot.). But I don't.

[m0usey]

You do indeed have a point Jennicat...but there's still an obvious difference between guinea pigs and dogs.

[Rachy1412]

I see no difference. Your treating one animal with more respect than you are the other, thats not fair.

As SK pointed out the showing is for the enjoyment of the HUMAN, so you force a poor guinea pig to sit in a cramp cage with no water for hours on end. How is that possibly exciting for a guinea pig? The money issue just prooves that they are a waste of money. You could spend that money on better cages, more veggies, better quality hay and pellets. You are wasting money so that you can have a bit of enjoyment. Sitting and watching my pigs play or cuddling them on my lap is enough for me. I don't need to go show them off because I know mine are the best there is! (Of course we all think that! :p).

[Jennicat]

You do indeed have a point Jennicat...but there's still an obvious difference between guinea pigs and dogs.

I realize that, as I own both six guinea pigs, and a dog. My six guinea pigs are no less feeling than my dog. (And, knowing my dog, are probably a great deal smarter). They miss me when I'm gone, get excited when they see me, and know my voice and footsteps apart from my boyfriend's.

They've learned many tricks, including how to jump for treats, certain phrases, and only to beg my boyfriend for water or pellets when I'm asleep.

Again, just because they're small and different doesn't mean that they don't require the same amount of attention.

Rabbits are an entirely different matter, and if you've ever lived with a house rabbit, are very similar to living with a cat, complete with litter training.

Again, I'm not sure why it's considered ok to breed smaller animals more indiscriminately than larger ones, or to treat them differently. They are still intelligent creatures that deserve more than sitting in a shed all day with minimum of human contact.

Heck, even my gerbils, which are obviously less intelligent than guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, and cats, show "happiness" to see me, and need mental stimulation to remain happy.

[Jennicat]

I would also like to point out that although SK claims there are no rescues near enough to her to rescue guinea pigs from (though she is in California, the most overpopulated state in terms of GPs), she does have the time and money to travel cross country to show her guinea pigs. If she can travel to Texas, why not 3 hours up the road to rescue?

I've seen this with a lot of breeders... they balk at travelling 2-3 hours to rescue an animal in need, but seem to have no problems travelling around to shows to bring home ribbons.

[squealingkiddos]

Without water? Um, all the shows I've been to, all the cavies had water and food, and most got veggies afterwards. Shows usually run from 8am to 4:00pm, usually. The pigs usually just take naps or chat with each other.

Likewise, breeders that are trying to better the breed, have to really narrow on down which cavies are for their breeding program, like cull some animal(that does NOT mean cull, that means rehome). Personally too, I've found out that some breeder will sell you anything and not be truthful. And I hate when some do that, it's just not acceptable. Nonetheless, cavies are just cavies; all they ever want to do is EAT! That's probably where they got the word 'pig' from in their name, guinea pig!

[squealingkiddos]

I would also like to point out that although SK claims there are no rescues near enough to her to rescue guinea pigs from (though she is in California, the most overpopulated state in terms of GPs), she does have the time and money to travel cross country to show her guinea pigs. If she can travel to Texas, why not 3 hours up the road to rescue?

I've seen this with a lot of breeders... they balk at travelling 2-3 hours to rescue an animal in need, but seem to have no problems travelling around to shows to bring home ribbons.

What's your problem with bugging me so much?! I KNOW THERE ARE RESUCES for your 411! But do you think I am looking for rescue pigs when I raise pigs and only have room for bringing pigs here that are REALLY good (healthy, good lines.). Why don't you just leave me the hell out of this! The last thing I want to hear is your shit! Poor Galaxy died, and I'm still upset, and would rather not have to deal with someone I hate.

[Jennicat]

I'm sorry, last time you went on a tirade you told me you had me on ignore, I was assuming that you were still ignoring me. I'm sorry that your cavy died.

However, good breeders also rescue. I know you don't want any of the "crappy, really bad" rescue pigs, but when you contribute to the problem, you should also contribute to the solution.

[Rachy1412]

I am sorry to hear about galaxy too but she didn't die of some illness did she? She died most likely of pregnancy toxemia, which shows just why you shouldn't breed.

I am not sure what you meany by "cavies are just cavies". Do they deserve less respect and poor treatment cause all they want to do is eat? My pigs don't just eat, they play, they show affection and each pig has a unique personality.

[Mistwraith]

However, good breeders also rescue. I know you don't want any of the "crappy, really bad" rescue pigs, but when you contribute to the problem, you should also contribute to the solution.

You know, just because you think that "good breeders" should rescue, doesn't mean that good breeders should rescue. My cousin breeds, and she doesn't rescue. I think that my friend is going to breed, and she won't rescue. Both of them are good breeders. Both of them keep their animals in tip top shape, and take care of their animals, and give them the best care. Just because your a good breeder, doesn't mean that you have to rescue. My cousin breeds labs, and my friend is going to breed dogs, I can't remember what type of dog though.

[Jennicat]

That's just going to have to be a difference of opinion. If you are adding to the overpopulation, you should do something to help it. And breeding any animal is bringing more into the world. It's important with smaller animals, but even MORE important with dogs and cats. 9 are put down every minute. I dont' see how it's possible to breed and not at least foster for rescues, and not feel keenly the deaths of the animals that happen every minute.

My boss breeds west highland terriers. Champion west highland terriers. For every dog his dogs produce, he funds the rescue of one. There are lots of westies in rescue. But he'd dedicated to the breed, not to his selfish desire to make more animals.

[tvrodents]

I have to say that I do rescue animals regularly becuase as a knowledgable, experienced breeder i know that I can take care of the,m untill they are well enough (assuming they are ill) to be re-homed. My rescues take priority for rehoming as i know that my home bred babies will never find getting new homes difficult. My animals are sort after and I have waiting lists for many species. I would not breed if i couldnt re home and I wouldnt breed if I couldnt rescue... this is just me and i am not saying that no breeder should rescue. I am currently looking into getting a private quarentine licence so that i can house ill animals in thier own air space and do it all by the book. I always have baytril, painkillers and anti-inflamatories to hand for my animals and have a very decent (compared to most) vet practice in my village. You still cant get your head round the fact that just becuase my shed is a wooden building it is an exytention of my house,. I spend a minimum of three hours a day in my breeding room and its generally alot more unless my health is playing up or I have to go out. My animals take priority over everything, holidays, cooking dinner, even my fiance if there is a problem down in 'shed land'. The fact that I have only had two of my animals get ill (this is not counting the rescues) this year is exemplary when you consider that i have well over 150 animals.
I really, really can see why you get so emotional about this subject and having seen some truely dire breeders in a way you have every right to feel as you do. do NOT try to dub me as a BYB just becuase my animals are in a seperate building. Please. :)

Kat

[Jennicat]

I have to say that I do rescue animals regularly becuase as a knowledgable, experienced breeder i know that I can take care of the,m untill they are well enough (assuming they are ill) to be re-homed. My rescues take priority for rehoming as i know that my home bred babies will never find getting new homes difficult. My animals are sort after and I have waiting lists for many species. I would not breed if i couldnt re home and I wouldnt breed if I couldnt rescue... this is just me and i am not saying that no breeder should rescue. I am currently looking into getting a private quarentine licence so that i can house ill animals in thier own air space and do it all by the book. I always have baytril, painkillers and anti-inflamatories to hand for my animals and have a very decent (compared to most) vet practice in my village. You still cant get your head round the fact that just becuase my shed is a wooden building it is an exytention of my house,. I spend a minimum of three hours a day in my breeding room and its generally alot more unless my health is playing up or I have to go out. My animals take priority over everything, holidays, cooking dinner, even my fiance if there is a problem down in 'shed land'. The fact that I have only had two of my animals get ill (this is not counting the rescues) this year is exemplary when you consider that i have well over 150 animals.
I really, really can see why you get so emotional about this subject and having seen some truely dire breeders in a way you have every right to feel as you do. do NOT try to dub me as a BYB just becuase my animals are in a seperate building. Please. :)

Kat

I appreciate all you do for rescue animals, and all you do to try to help animals in general. It's a very pleasant change to see a breeder acknowledge that their actions do have consequence in the real world. :)

I do feel that all animals should be housed inside, ideally. Our rescue houses all animals inside at the owners house (those that aren't fostered). The guinea pigs all have a minimum of a 2x3 cube cage per pair, though we went to have larger cages with more in them, rather than more smaller cages (if that makes sense) and the bunnies have similar accomodations and are allowed free range time.

Her house is not especially large, and we typically house between 20-30 animals at the time. She spends a lot of time cleaning, but that also means that she gets to spend almost ALL of her time with the animals when she's there.

[tvrodents]

I do think its important to do some sort of rescue if you breed. I never refuse a rescue unless its a rabbit purely becuase i cannot afford them the space in my breeding room and I'm allergic to them so cant even have them in the house. I'm not prepared to take on something i cant look after properly.
I spend pretty much all day with my guys, I have been in there all day today and have (as usual) been cleaning out but its been terrible weather so I was getting wet whilst scrubbing the cages... I do all the stuff involving cleaners outside becuase I worry about the fumes. If they make me wheeze i dont want my animals breathing them. they are all phenol free animla-specific cleaners but i dont want to take a chance. I'm sure you get me :)

TVR

[Mistwraith]

Ok, ya, I guess that's something ya'll have changed my opinion about now. If you breed, you should do a little bit of rescuing.

[tvrodents]

Yeah, I feel that if i am adding to the population i should be helping with any rescues. Its important to me. I know is sounds silly but i feel its my duty to the animals some how. does that make sense? I will not breed rabbits on principle becuase there is a huge rabbit population round here and i sure as hell dont want to add to it. I mostly breed exotics and they only go to specialist owners or those with plenty of experience. I do breed various hamster species, rats and mice too though but as i say, i never have a problem homing babies. If i did i would stop breeding.

Kat

[Mistwraith]

Ya, that makes alot of sense, and I agree with it.

[tvrodents]

Good, i'm glad you get me. People often dont! lol. Sorry for the bad spelling btw, i broke my finger earlier and im being a bit lazy with the punctuation etc. It bloody hurts!!

Kat

[Mistwraith]

Lol, it's OK. I'm sorry about your finger, how'd you break it?

[tvrodents]

I managed to shut it in my front door. the front door is metal and extremely heavy, it crushed my finger so much its actually split it and it bled quite a bit and its so swollen. Im being badgered to go to the hosp and get it looked at but iv strapped it up anyway and i dont see the point in waiting in A&E for 6 hours to be told 'you have a broken finger' lol
I have a litter of syrian hamsters due either tomorrow or friday. I'm really looking forward to them, I always get so excited when anything is expecting. I love it. I have friends that bring thier kids over to look at the babies every now and again so that they can see the animals growing and see how they develope with out having to breed themselves. I think its nice for the kids. They arent allowed to handle the babies until way after their eyes open (except for one girl who i can trust to hold them gently and conidently but she is 13 so much older)
I love seeing their faces when they look at the babies. thats why i started doing the talks at schools, kids love animals and most kids have never even seen a lemming or a degu or in some cases even a tame rat so its a delight to see them so enraptured.

Kat

Kat

[m0usey]

"Again, just because they're small and different doesn't mean that they don't require the same amount of attention."
I never said anything about attention!

BTW, I'm not going to say anything about rabbits...I don't really know anything about them so I have no place talking about them.

"Again, I'm not sure why it's considered ok to breed smaller animals more indiscriminately than larger ones, or to treat them differently. They are still intelligent creatures that deserve more than sitting in a shed all day with minimum of human contact."
I didn't say anything about the actual breeding either...I didn't say that you SHOULD breed guinea pigs, or dogs. I just said that even if it is a shed, as long as you continue to provide them with proper care and attention (and space) who cares if it's a shed or a mansion?

Oh, hey, Rachy, not sure if I said this already but the pig in your avatar is adorable lol :D

[tvrodents]

it is isnt it!
Speaking of rescues, i just took a very distressing call from one of my okld lecturers at collage. She is leaving her fiance tomorrow and has to move to bristol which is miles away

she cant take her animals
shes totally gutted. I have made afew calls and have managed to home the gerbil and the ferrets and well as possibly the hamsters but this is the whole list:
3 x Syrians – golden, golden tort, LH golden
2 x rats
1 x gerbil
3 x ferrets
1 x bunny
2 x rex male cavy
2 x tri coloured cavy boys
1 x brown and tan female cavy
1 x black and brown female cavy, five months old
1 x brown & tan Cavy, ten months

[Punkygirl0101]

My teacup chihuahua is actually the size of my guinea pig. She weighs the exact same, which is 2 1/2 pounds, and she is a tiny amount bigger then him. Would I stick her in a cage? No, even though she is the same size as the guinea pig. If I had a choice, would I allow the guinea pig complete access to my whole entire house? Of course.

I don't think one animal should be treated more importantly than another. Why stick any animal in a cage in a shed? Even if it is heated and air conditioned. If you cannot keep them all in your home, then you shouldn't have so many. All 90 of my animals live INSIDE my house, with me! Most live in my room actually.

I have only had a rabbit for a couple weeks now. But he has proven to be more demanding then my cats, and some of my dogs. I hate that he has to be in a cage, but if he would hurry up and become litter trained, I would let him out!! I cannot even imagine people keeping a rabbit in a cage in a shed for most of the day without allowing them out for at least 12 hours!! And I feel the same way about guinea pigs, which is why mine has free range of the hallway most of the day so he isn't stuck in his cage.

O.T, I didn't know you had gerbils Jennicat ;)

SK, good reputable/ responsible breeders breed AND rescue. Why? Because they know they are bringing more guinea pigs/animals in to the world, and its only fair to rescue some too. Only irresponsible breeders care so much about making sure every g/p that lives with them is the perfect one.

And Galaxy died because you bred her. BReeding is risking the lives of the animals you are breeding, and its unfair to them.

And Mist. your friend and whoever else breeds is obviously a byb. There is more to breeding then having a good looking dog. They actually have to have them health certified, and show them to prove they are Champions.. those are the only dogs that should be bred. Just because someone has two AKC registered dogs doesn't mean those dogs are breeding quality. Thats what you don't seem to understand.

My mom used to breed dachshunds. And she was completely biased on breeds. She only liked dachshunds and often pissed me off with some remarks she made, such as "its not a dog if it isn't a dachshund" and so on. We did take in a pregnant husky mix which did change her view on dogs until the husky killed two of our beloved dogs. (One being a 13 year old toy poodle, and the other a poodle/dachshund mix) and she still refers to huskies as "Devil Dogs". She doesn't breed anymore, and thats thanks to me, and we rescue dogs now! And she is completely into rescuing them. We have always rescued cats though. She plans in the future when all of our dogs are gone to rescue elderly dogs from the SPCA. She even wants to get a large dog. :) (She is still a little biased though..)

[Jennicat]

O.T, I didn't know you had gerbils Jennicat ;)

:) Yeah, I've got Tailchaser and Chank Dworkin now. Scuffledig passed about a month ago (he was a few months over three), and so I adopted Chank from our rescue. Chank is a sanctuary guy because of his age... according to his owner's records, he's turning 6 in a couple of months. But he's very spry and certainly gives the "young" whippersnapper Tailchaser a run for his money. ^_^

I've got them set up in a cage for rats... it's ~2 feet tall and ~2 feet wide, with three levels that I've covered with coroplast so they don't injure their feet on it. They LOVE having all the room, and are very active and friendly. :) Chank especially comes to the top level and thumps at me when I'm giving the guinea pigs veggies for his nightly treat.

[Punkygirl0101]

Aren't gerbils just filled with energy? My youngins run and run and I can never get any pictures of them because they are always moving around!! I have my girls in a 70 gallon storage bin with the lid made of mesh. I have it half way filled with aspen shavings and underneath the shavings I have multiple little underground "villages" lol. I have tons of tubes and cardboard! They are in heaven!Gerbils energy reminds me of a 3 year old child! Always on the go. :)

Off topic again, for the first time last night I heard Alex wheek! He had never done it before, but last night at veggie time he wheeked like crazy!! He really has opened up to me, and has turned into a sweet little man! I cannot wait to get him a friend! He is so lonely. I am waiting for my SPCA to get guinea pigs in.

[HandcuffedAngel]

You can have mine. Lolz. They make me nuts.

Except Chester ... I'm actually quite fond of him.

[Mistwraith]

Mel, how cool! I'm glad he's opening up to you!