Bsl...

[Espi]

I was just wondering what everyone thinks about BSL, I'm open-minded about it... Let's respect everyone's opinion, I don't want anyone being flamed. :)

Does anyone know how to add a poll? I'm kinda new here.

[kittykat05]

What is BSL???

[lneill84]

Breed specific legislation

[Pandapita04]

You cannot add polls here...

I dissigree with BSL, I own a beagle american pit bull mix.. She was a neglected hurricane Katrina rescue, she dosen't have front teeth because she was bred over and over.. Like most pits/pit mixes she is the sweetest dog ever, she is very protective. If a stranger comes near any of us she starts barking, growling and if they get too colse she jumps up and holds on to they're leg and keeps barking.. I would much rather have a dog that is protective like that then one that would hide under a bed while someone is killing you.. I've never met a mean "bully bred" dog, I've met plenty on bitey chihuauas, miniture poodles, yorkies, ect..

Something that pees me off is when you read those mauling stories about "pit bulls" 9 times out of ten they were not a pit bull. On one news site I read that a medium sized dog that looked like a poodle attacked a elderly lady that was gardening.. I read the same story on Yahoo and it said that the dog was a pit bull :mad: ...

My fathers family had American Pit Bull Terrier, they said that she was one of the sweetest dogs ever. She never hurt anyone. Most BSL goes toward pits, but it is taking rotties, dobies, chow-chows, ect down with it.. ANY dog from a chihuahua to and irish wolfhound can hurt and even kill someone.

The owners make a dog what it is.

[FemaleCheetah]

I own an American Pit Bull Terrier and it really does upset me that people are so ignorant and are blaming the BREED of the dog and not the people. They are targeting certain breeds that they consider to be "vicious" when they really aren't. My pit Zoe has NEVER hurt anyone, she protects me when she feels that there is danger but she has never attacked anyone. And the media has people nervous and scared of certain dog breeds now. When I am walking Zoe people will grab their kids or walk on the opposite side of the road because they think Zoe will attack them. Its quit pathetic if you ask me... I don't trust the media whatsoever its so corrupt!

Like everyone says - Ban the DEED not the BREED!

[Jennicat]

BSL is a very poor idea. Quite frankly, the people that are for it have no ability to read farther back in history than the past couple of years. No breed of dog is more dangerous than any other breed (except, perhaps, based on size alone).

When I was a kid, these same uneducated fools were yelling about, "OMG TEH GERMANS SHEPERDS WILL KILL ALL OF YOUR BAYBIES THEIR BRAINS GET TOO BIG FOR THEIR HEDS!"

Then it was Rotties. And now it's come around to pit bulls.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

Here's an interesting website.

Deaths in a year caused by dogs: 23
Drowning by falling in a bathtub per year: 332
Contact with hornets, wasps, and bees: 66

Maybe we should be arguing for bee specific legislation, or fighting against bathtubs, hmm?

[FemaleCheetah]

lol Jennicat, I agree with you.

[MokeyBird]

Where my grandmother lives you have to have like a $100,000 insurance policy to own a Rottweiler or any other powerful breed and something like State Farm wouldn't even insure you if you owned one. She was telling this of course as I was hugging around on my Rottie.

She was the biggest teddy bear ever. I just loved that big ol' girl. Before I got her I will admit that I was wary of rottweilers and would NEVER have considered getting one. "Ugh, Rottweilers?! Why would you want one of those?!" Not now. Now I would take one any day.

I think people who own great examples of the breed in question should be on the forefront of the education of the public of these breeds. Show the people what responsible ownership can do with the "dangerous breeds". I agree that certain breeds are not naturally vicious. Powerful, yes. Viciousness is a result of poor ownership. It does need to be taken into consideration, though, that the bad often outshines the good. Which means we who own these breeds need to fight even harder for what we know is right.

[Pippin]

BSL=BS

BSL does more harm than good. It punishes responsible owners and does nothing to affect dangerous dogs and their owners. More laws need to be enacted to target irresponsible owners and dangerous dogs regardless of breeds. Not nearly impossible to enforce legislation that is basically inefective.

[Pandapita04]

Yeah, ban bathtubs!! A friends brother drown in a tub.. And ban cigarettes too, a dear friend died of lung and spinal cancer because of smoking, my great-grand father, grand father, and grand-fathers friend had heart problems due to smoking which killed them.. Infact take away all tobaco! Don't move! carefully make a plastic bubble surronding you, and then you won't have to worry about falling and breaking your neck. And don't eat or drink eather you could choke to death(almost happened to my brother).. And remove ALL metals from the earth!! You could get lock jaw:yes:

[dogluver8906]

BSL is just plain crap. I originally was kind of afraid of anything that even looked like a "pit bull". The first time i brought home a stray pit bull mix, i was wary of whether to let her roam freely, i thought she would try to attack my little chihuahuas. But actually, she turned out to be the sweetest dog i have ever met. She actually was afraid of my little chis..lol. Now i have learned much more about APBTs and some of the other "bully breeds" and i actually think i would like to adopt an APBT some day. All of these dogs that harm people do so not because of their breed but because of poor breeding and horrible training/socialization. I hate when i see an article talks about a "pit bull" attack and the owners of the dog usually will claim the dog was a beloved pet who just "snapped". You know the reality is that the dog most likely lived outside on the end of a chain, or lived through some other form of irresponsible ownership.

[DEMON]

BSL=BULLSHIT!xxxxx

[Iridal]

BSL is like gun control. The people who you don't want owning them are the same people who don't give a hoot about the law.

Trying to keep these dangerous dogs away from everyone is therefore pointless, since the only people who would listen to such a law are probably the ones who would have been responsible owners in the first place. Pit bull fighters are still going to own their fighting dogs even with BSL... after all, dog fighting is illegal, but they still do it.

[babylops]

so is BSL meaining pit bulls only... i was just wondering. also i just want you guys to explain to me why you disagree with what i am saying... (dont get mad just explain why im wrong)

[babylops]

i know pit bulls can be the sweetest dogs and your may have never hurt anyone but am i worng that the breed was created fir fighting? now most pitbulls now are house pets and are very friendly but if you pee that dog off on purpous , just becuase it is doing something bad and your just telling him "no!" , or beacuse you are playing catch and he/she gets mad b/c you have the ball than wouldnt the natural instinks come out that they were originaly bread and trained for? like i said they are sweet all the time but just like if someone abandoned a dog out in the woods and it uses its natural instinks to stay warm and find food wouldnt it do something like bite you if you got it mad and mabey caught it off gaurd.

i am welcome to feed back but i want to understand how you guess feel so understand that. i love dogs and i just want to knoe why this would be wrong

[Iridal]

If you replace "pit bull" with "any dog" in that paragraph, you would be closer to truth. Any dog that has been abandoned or abused may attack or protect its food when trying to survive. This isn't a trait specific to pits, or any to any one breed, so why should laws be passed against one type of breed?

Like I said before, the people who want pits (or rotties or dobies) for fighting aren't going to care about the laws anyway. They'll still get their "fighting dogs". They're already doing the fighting illegally. The BSL will only hurt honest responsible owners that didn't need the law in the first place.

What we need are laws against irresponsible owners and the means to enforce them. BSL is treating the symptom, not the problem.

[babylops]

ok, so is it true tha pit bulls were bred to fight or not? becuase if they were than their insicts would be more severe than a huskie who was bred for pulling sleds and surviving in the cold. i found this site that says this and it is a site that wants you to get a pit bull. I just want people to accept that their dog can instinctively be mean, not that they will but could.
like this site with people that love pit bulls they still accept the fact of the breed's past

the info is at the bottom of the page and is:

Never trust a pit bull not to fight...
It is not a hate of other dogs that causes pit bulls to fight, but rather an "urge" to do so that has been bred into the dogs for many generations. Pit bulls may fight over hierarchic status, but external stimulus or excitement can also trigger a fight. Remember that any canine can fight, but pit bulls were bred specifically for their drive, intensity, and determination to win.

Pit bull owners must be aware of the remarkable fighting abilities these dogs posses and always keep in mind that pit bulls have the potential to inflict serious injury to other animals. A pit bull may not even be the one starting a conflict, but he has the genetics to finish it. Remember that pit bulls are almost always blamed no matter who initiated the hostilities, and often end up paying the price...as does the owner!

That said, some pit bulls get along great with other pets and may live happily with other dogs without incident. We just can't assume that this is true for all of them, or take for granted that pit bulls getting along with other pets today will do so tomorrow. Pit bull owners must have common sense and make sure they don't set their dogs up for failure by putting them in inappropriate situations.

Every negative incident involving a pit bull adds to their reputation and jeopardizes our right to own these great dogs. Keep your pit bull out of trouble!

Please remember that animal-aggression and people-aggression are two distinct traits and should never be confused. Unless they have been very poorly bred and/or specifically "trained" to attack humans (often by undesirable individuals through abusive methods), pit bulls are, by nature, very good with people. They are, in fact, one of the most loving, loyal, friendly and dedicated companions one can have.

http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo.html

[Iridal]

Okay I see where you're coming from. Yes, pit bulls were bred to be animal aggressive, but that article you posted specifically points out that this natural tendancy is only towards animals. It is poor breeding and poor training that causes the people aggression, which can really happen with ANY breed. BSL tries to target dogs aggressive to human beings, which is always assumed to be pits, but that's not the case.

Also... Huskies, from what I hear, are pretty animal aggressive. Not because they're terrible dogs, but because that breed is particularly sensitive about pack order and will act to correct animals that doen't adhere to their standards. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jennicat]

Pit bulls are TERRIERS. Any dog in the terrier group has been bred with a high drive to kill prey. In the pit bull's case, this was other dogs. However, dog aggression is NOT human aggression. The original breeders of pit bulls went to great lengths to cull human aggressive dogs, because they had to handle these dogs in the fight without getting torn to pieces.

You are also thinking in terms of human emotion. Having a high prey drive is not "mean". It's no more mean than a cat killing a mouse. You have fallen into the pit that most people have -- the anthromorphing of dogs into tiny little people who are "mean" or "hate" or "murder".

[Pippin]

BSL can include ANY breed of dog. Italy has banned over 70 breeds including the corgi. German Shepherds, Chows, Dobermans, Rottweilers, Huskies, Wolf Hybrids, and many other breeds are often included in this blanket legislation. Pit bulls today....your breed tomorrow!

Yes, pit bulls were bred for dog fighting. But that's entirely seperate from human aggression and is absolutely managable. In fact, a normal pit bull is one of the single most safest dogs around people due to it's dog fighting heritage. Human aggression was unacceptible (sp) in the pits and dogs that displayed it where put down.

I'm wicked tired or else I would write more.

[MokeyBird]

A little off topic, but I wonder if there are any rottweilers that are doing what they were originally bred to do. They were driving dogs, were they not, driving sheep or cattle or some other herd. I would like to see that.

Here are some interesting websites that some of you might want to look at. Some rather nice info especially in the second link.
http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/ -nice, however short, infor pertaining to almost all of the bull dog breeds
http://www.bulldoginformation.com/bull-baiting.html -really good historical information about bull baiting and the breed itself

I'll find more if anyone wants, and probably even if you don't, just to quell my own curiosity.

[Punkygirl0101]

I agree, I think it is bs. One breed should not be banned! We had a husky/lab mix who attacked and killed two of our beloved dogs, should all huskies be banned? NO. She was a pregnant stray we found in a park, and could have had a troubled past.

On animals cops though, I did see an episode in the San Fransisco one where a woman left her door open by mistake, and her two pit mixes attacked an elderly couple. The owner said these dogs were the sweetest things, and she didn't understand why they would attack someone.

But the truth is, ANY dog breed could attack, not just one.

my dachshunds have chased and attacked cats. As have my chihuahua and rat terrier mixes. They have also killed smaller animals. So, any dog has the capability of killing a smaller creature, or getting into a dog fight.

[babylops]

true, which is why owners should be responsible. If you know that your dog is harming animals cats or even a squril you should keep him on leash or let him run in a fenced off area. your right its not the dogs fault but the owneres.

[Jennicat]

If people are letting their cats roam into other people's yards that are fenced, they need to keep their cats inside.

[VelvetFuzzbutt]

I've never seen a case where it was the dogs fault.
where it was abused, starved of socialization, bred to fight and be agressive, or the drugs and genetic from the parents came into the pups(fighters often drug the dogs with steroids and other bits).

I have a bracelet that says- "Punish the DEED, Not the BREED". :)

pippen I love what you said. There was a mocknews letter out about labradores being banned and theres was an uproar just like with bully breed owners. they wanted people to listen, and get that it could happen to their dogs.

[Mousarhinos]

I'm glad someone brought this topic up. I'm very very much against breed bans. If you ban pitbulls I think you might as well breed pets all together. One of my rats bit my cat the other day (the rats were safe inside the cage but the kitten was a little "too interested") Should domestic rats be banned because of this? NO!
Animals are animals, they are not people. Although we may think we can communicate with animals it is not on the same level as we do with humans. Some people disagree with me on this but my tendency is to never fully trust ANY dog. Whether they are your dog or not, I do not think you can unconditionally trust them. I have two dogs who are at opposite ends of the spectrum. My beagle/sheltie mix is the friendliest thing on the planet and my hound/pit mix has unpredictable and severe dog aggression and people aggression (to strange people and dogs only). I will never completely trust either one of them. Jezzy, the beagle/sheltie is so gentle, but she's also very determined. IF she were ever in serious danger I would not promise anything.

Theres an important factor in that story where the person's dogs got out the front door and attacked the elderly couple: IRRESPONSIBLE OWNER! If you are going to own a dog you have to be in control of it at times, either in the house, on a leash or within a fenced yard. There is just no excuse.
I know some people have dogs that are highly trained that allow them to walk off leash and trust that the dog will obey commands. I personally do not trust that method or those dogs. I've never met one that was mean, but I refuse to be caught off guard because they are assumed to be "good dogs."

All dogs have fighting/biting capabilities. It is just a fact of dog ownership; it always has been and always will be.

[DazyDaizee]

How about BREEDER specific legislation, as in stupid, irresponsible people are not allowed to breed dogs, only qualified, knowledgeable breeders are permitted to breed dogs, and place them with qualified, knowledgeable owners.
How about IGNORANT OWNER bans, so that way we virtually don't have to worry about dog attacks at all, because only people who know what they're doing and will properly care for, train and restrain their dogs are permitted to own them. Most dog attacks (and by the way, there is a long list of small dog breeds "more likely" to bite than the breeds the ban is for) are because of stupidity and negligence on the owners part. Too many people who should never own dogs have them, because they're just too easy to get and such a common pet. You want a family pet, go adopt a dog... your kids need a playmate, the pet store in the mall is open late tonight... Need a good Christmas present, a puppy will do the trick. It's nonsense. Stupid people are the main cause of dog attacks.


I lived in an apartment with a guy from Russia last year, and he was surprised with the instance of dog attacks (or the amount we hear about them, making it seem as if viscous mongrels are swarming the streets taking out innocent children all over the country). In Russia, where dogs are treated like dogs and owned by people who understand them a lot better than most people in the US, it seems, he never had a problem and never knew anyone with a behavioral issue with a dog. He said the dogs were even submissive to children (even if the child was not known to the dog). It was EXPECTED that they do not bite, they do not attack people, because people are above them. I'm not saying dogs don't bite in Russia, but the general view of dogs by the people who own them is different (at least in the area he was from) than it is here, and with that you get a better dog.

Honestly... dogs are becoming accessories over here. They're used to make money off of (fighting, over-breeding, some even steal pets to sell for profit), they're creating new breeds with cutesy names to attract buyers (A puggle? Yeah, great idea, take the Pug's short nose, stout build, and likelihood to develop ear, skin, eye, weight, and breathing issues and mix in a little Beagle because you want to be sure it howls like there's no tomorrow because it has this urge to track and explore and roam, but it's body limits it from satisfying any of those desires, so instead it's just twice as likely to be obese, have chronic ear issues, probably skin issues, possibly breathing difficulties, and behavioral problems. It'll sell, though, cause it's got that cute name, and it's just such an adorable mutt.. I mean.. designer breed. Makes for a great shelter dog.) The point is that too many dog owners do not take dog ownership seriously or consider all that must go into it. ANY dog will bite under some circumstance... but it's the owner's responsibility to prevent that from happening by properly educating themselves before bringing a dog into their home.

It's the people who own the biting dogs that we should be concerned about, not the breeds those irresponsible owners chose. Strong dogs need strong owners, but stupid people shouldn't own ANY breed.

[Punkygirl0101]

Amen to what Ashley just said! I completely agree :)

[babylops]

see thats what i agree with... stop saying that dogs are all so friendly but agree that they can also be mean. accept that some dogs have been breed for bad stuff. that you cant trust any dog completely. that this is all beacuse of people's bad ownership. the dogs that originaly were reterivers are not likely going to deside by themselves that they want to go kill another dog.

[Jennicat]

see thats what i agree with... stop saying that dogs are all so friendly but agree that they can also be mean. accept that some dogs have been breed for bad stuff. that you cant trust any dog completely. that this is all beacuse of people's bad ownership. the dogs that originaly were reterivers are not likely going to deside by themselves that they want to go kill another dog.

Then you've obviously never looked at temperment testing statistics. Pit bulls are 4th. From the bottom.

http://www.atts.org/statistics.html

Maybe you should cosy up with that a bit, hm?

[Mousarhinos]

I'm sorry but I think that breed temperment testing is BS. It says they've tested a lot of dogs, but for many of those breeds they only tested 1 or 2 dogs. The percentages cannot be compared unless they are of equal standing and they are not! Not to mention I don't believe their testing reflects anything but lack of socialization and training. Any dog that has been kept isolated and has never encountered such situations is HIGHLY likely to react in a way that would get them "put at the bottom of the list." It is inflammatory and ignorant websites like this that misinform all the people who support BSL.

[Jennicat]

"ignorant" websites like that are the place that DO the temperment testing. They put up the statistics that they have. How is that inflamatory, unless people are too stupid to look at the percentages instead of the numbers?

Obviously it's not a good comparison to compare the American Pit Bull Terrier (515 dogs listed) to the American Foxhound (2 dogs tested). But when 561 Aussies were tested, it is not an unfair statistic. It points out that breed has little to do with biting. There is no preponderance of OMG CRAZY PITTTTTTS GOING TO KEEEL US ALL.

[Pippin]

Mousarhinos, American Pit Bull terriers and the bully breeds do great on the American Temperment Test. They rank as good or better than a lot of the "good" family dogs such as the golden retriever.

Jennicat, lol, I think you might have mistaken the 4th from the bottom thing. That had to do with breeds involved in bites in a certain area. Pits were low in that statistic. But with the ATTS pits are high in the passing rate.

stop saying that dogs are all so friendly but agree that they can also be mean. accept that some dogs have been breed for bad stuff.

This goes for all breeds. :wink: Pit bull owners do have to be realistic about their dogs...but so do owners of all other breeds.

the dogs that originaly were reterivers are not likely going to deside by themselves that they want to go kill another dog.

Do you have any idea how many breeds where bred for dog fighting? It's not just the pit bull. Sharpeis, Akitas, bulldogs, and the Kerry blue terrier are just a few. And pits most certainly are NOT the only dogs that have attacked and killed other dogs.

If you don't want to deal with a dog aggressive dog then that's your personal choice. You can't demonize a breed simply because of their heritage. The majority of breeds were once bred for hunting or fighting of some sort. So don't ever get a hound or a terrier.

[Punkygirl0101]

And pits most certainly are NOT the only dogs that have attacked and killed other dogs.
Agreed. As I have stated numerous times in many threads, we had a Husky/lab/shepherd mix that attacked and killed our toy poodle, and our dachshund mix. Its how a dog was raised that cause them to attack other dogs. If they were well socialized as puppies, then they wouldn't attack other dogs.

[babylops]

pippin, sorry if you misunderstood but the Quote:
the dogs that originaly were reterivers are not likely going to deside by themselves that they want to go kill another dog. is hould have worded it differently. what i meant was that any dog would not likely decide by themselves that they want ot go and kill another dog. pointing out that the main reason they would is beause of us. saying that all dogs are changed beacuse of us for the good and bad.

one more question.. does anyone one know how many dogs of each breed are still being trained to fight... obviously illegily

[Kristal007]

I've never seen a case where it was the dogs fault.
where it was abused, starved of socialization, bred to fight and be agressive, or the drugs and genetic from the parents came into the pups(fighters often drug the dogs with steroids and other bits).

I have a bracelet that says- "Punish the DEED, Not the BREED". :)

pippen I love what you said. There was a mocknews letter out about labradores being banned and theres was an uproar just like with bully breed owners. they wanted people to listen, and get that it could happen to their dogs.

Where did you find that bracelet???? I've never seen one that said that!

IOh, and BSL is the biggest load of crap.....